Can I claim delay repay?

[AndyMe]

I booked an Off-Peak Return from London Paddington to Swansea for Friday 30th Sept. I selected the 18:48 train and had a seat reservation for it.

On Thursday 29th, I decided that I would travel earlier so reserved a seat on the 16:18.

When I set off from home on the Friday, I realised that if I rushed, I should be able to make the even earlier 15:48 from London Paddington. Sure enough, I tapped out through the Elizabeth Line gateline with my Oyster Card at 15:39, with plenty of time to get the 15:48. However, the 15:48 to Swansea had been cancelled.

The 16:18 arrived in Swansea 56 minutes later than the 15:48 should have.

Can I claim delay repay even though I had a reservation on the 16:18, but could have and would have caught the 15:48 if it had not been cancelled? My original ticket that I would submit with the claim will have my orginal reservation of 18:48 although as my ticket was scanned on the train and I can provide proof, if required, that I was at Paddington early enough to catch the 16:18 this shouldn't matter, should it?

If it makes any difference, all bookings were made through the GWR web site and delivered as e-tickets.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

London Paddington has a 15 minimum connection time, so arriving on another train at 15:39 for a 15:48 train onward wasn't ever a valid connection, was it?

 

[Haywain]

I booked an Off-Peak Return from London Paddington to Swansea for Friday 30th Sept. I selected the 18:48 train and had a seat reservation for it.

On Thursday 29th, I decided that I would travel earlier so reserved a seat on the 16:18.

When I set off from home on the Friday, I realised that if I rushed, I should be able to make the even earlier 15:48 from London Paddington. Sure enough, I tapped out through the Elizabeth Line gateline with my Oyster Card at 15:39, with plenty of time to get the 15:48. However, the 15:48 to Swansea had been cancelled.

The 16:18 arrived in Swansea 56 minutes later than the 15:48 should have.

Can I claim delay repay even though I had a reservation on the 16:18, but could have and would have caught the 15:48 if it had not been cancelled? My original ticket that I would submit with the claim will have my orginal reservation of 18:48 although as my ticket was scanned on the train and I can provide proof, if required, that I was at Paddington early enough to catch the 16:18 this shouldn't matter, should it?

If it makes any difference, all bookings were made through the GWR web site and delivered as e-tickets.

You weren’t delayed, you travelled on your planned train. And, as stated above, did not have sufficient connection time for a valid itinerary.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 1618 Paddington -> Swansea train on 30SEP2022 appears to have had a relatively minor 8 minute delay on arrival into Swansea. Not long enough for a valid claim.

Realtime Trains | 1618 London Paddington to Swansea | 30/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 1618 departure from London Paddington to Swansea on 30/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Dai Corner]

As far as GWR are concerned the OP arrived at Paddington in time to catch the cancelled 1548.

I'd suggest it's between him and his conscience whether he admits that his onward journey to Swansea was part of a longer one starting elsewhere?

 

[furlong]

Only two relevant factors in practice: (1) were you on the concourse in sufficient time to catch it? (2) was the train in the Published Timetable of the Day?
If you feel happier with evidence in case you need to appeal an initial denial of Delay Repay (which seems to happen a lot with cancelled trains as the claim systems don't appear to understand PToD yet either), a photo showing the late cancellation on the concourse departure boards would back up both.

 

[AndyMe]

You weren’t delayed, you travelled on your planned train. And, as stated above, did not have sufficient connection time for a valid itinerary.

My planned train changed a few times. When I originally booked it was the 12:48 on Sat 1st Oct. Because of the strike action it changed to the 18:48 on Fri 30th Sep. The day before travel it changed to the 16:18. When I left home on the day of travel it changed to the 15:48. Had I known at that point the 15:48 had been cancelled, I would have had a far more leisurely journey to Paddington.

I think I should have asked a different and simpler question...

If you have a seat reservation or an itinerary for a particular train but decide to catch an earlier or later train (which you certainly can do subject to the ticket type being valid), but that earlier or later train is delayed, can you claim delay repay?

Looking at Dai Corner and furlong's responses, I think the answer is yes you can.

I understand Mcr Warrior's and your point about the minimum connection time for a valid itinerary although as I didn't have an itinerary I'm not sure it's valid. Does the 15 minutes thing mean that anyone travelling from Paddington has to turn up 15 minutes before their train? I don't think it does. I included the Oyster Card piece as I thought it could be used to show that I was at the station in time to catch the earlier train even though I had a reservation on the later one. Without that proof, it might look as though I had seen that the train was cancelled and claimed delay repay even though I had no possibility of catching it. Of course, now I know this doesn't help me at all because of the minimum connection time being 15 mins.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you have a seat reservation or an itinerary for a particular train but decide to catch an earlier or later train (which you certainly can do subject to the ticket type being valid), but that earlier or later train is delayed, can you claim delay repay?

Yes.

Does the 15 minutes thing mean that anyone travelling from Paddington has to turn up 15 minutes before their train? I don't think it does.

It does, when connecting, as you were. Your journey as posted is not a valid itinerary and if you claim honestly it will be rejected. It is of course a matter for your conscience as to whether to disclose the journey on Oyster.

 

[30907]

I am inclined to agree with you.

I have before now reserved a seat on an evening train from King's Cross but caught one half an hour earlier (by being first off the Eurostar, not that it matters. The time of your reservation is irrelevant.

The interchange time at Paddington is only relevant if your claim is for a cross-London journey, which AIUI it isn't.

The only question is whether you wish to claim.

You may find it best to submit your claim by e-mail with an explanation that you changed your mind about your departure time. I don't think you need mention the 1618.

 

[AlterEgo]

The interchange time at Paddington is only relevant if your claim is for a cross-London journey, which AIUI it isn't.

It is relevant if you are making any rail journey into Paddington, including by Tube.

"Cross London" connection times are different. They are fixed links which suggest the travel time, plus the two individual connection times at both London stations used.

 

[pelli]

I disagree that a passenger that arrives by train to a station on one ticket and continues from the same station on another ticket is forced to consider those two journeys as being a single journey. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage states under what circumstances two separate tickets can be used to make (and enjoy the protections associated with) a single journey, but does not state that if two journeys on separate tickets are made in quick succession such as would be allowed to be interpreted as one journey then they must be interpreted as such.

Imagine lengthy forum threads arguing what would be needed to "break a split ticket": Just walking out on the street and back again, as leaving the station premises constitutes a break of journey? Walking out and boarding a bus and immediately getting off again? Walking out and taking a bus one stop and walking back again? Paying someone 1p for a short piggy back ride on the pavement outside the station (clearly an essential part of the journey, which sadly prevents it from being eligible for NRCoC split ticket protection!)? Getting off the tube one stop early and walking/taking a bus the last leg? Meanwhile, Railway Fraud Investigators interrogate passengers submitting delay repay for London Terminals tickets whether their true destination was the Terminal, or if not, by which means of transport they continued to their final destination, and if not by train/tube, whether that was always their intention, or whether they only chose to avoid the train/tube once they realised their inbound train was delayed so as to defraud the Railway of its minimum connection time...

I do think that the passenger should "honestly" decide beforehand whether they are making one joined up journey or two separate ones: If joined up, then their reference itinerary must respect the minimum connection times, but they get delay repay based on the sum of the two ticket costs, and they get additional protection (rerouting / advance ticket valid for next train / overnight accommodation) if the first leg is delayed and the connection broken. If separate, then they only get delay repay based on the one leg that is delayed, and have no protection if they miss their second leg.

(Note that I'm only considering the case of two separate tickets here - claiming delay repay for the second half of a journey on a through ticket when the whole journey was made in one go exploiting a sub-minimum connection time and arguing that a break of journey was made instead to reset the clock sounds fishy to me)

 

[AndyMe]

If joined up, then their reference itinerary must respect the minimum connection times, but they get delay repay based on the sum of the two ticket costs,

Very rarely is that going to help me with my 60+ Oyster Card , but I think the same as you.

I never build an itinerary from home, only from London. Always two separate tickets. I know roughly when I need to leave home to get to the London station I need at a certain time and I keep an eye on the local train times of course. But when I book my ticket I won't be thinking I have to get the 14:52 to Victoria (as an example), I just know I need to get to Paddington (again, as an example) before 15:45.

It looks like I need to rethink my journey planning.

 

[P Binnersley]

Railway Fraud Investigators interrogate passengers submitting delay repay for London Terminals tickets whether their true destination was the Terminal,

Nobody's "true destination" is the terminal (with the exception of some hardened enthusiasts).

If I as delayed into Paddington could I add an Oyster card fare on the Elizabeth line to to Tottenham Court Road to the claim? It works both ways.

 

[30907]

It is relevant if you are making any rail journey into Paddington, including by Tube.

It is relevant to the time you should allow.
It is not relevant for a claim based solely on a ticket from the interchange point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2022 ==

Meanwhile, Railway Fraud Investigators interrogate passengers submitting delay repay for London Terminals tickets whether their true destination was the Terminal, or if not, by which means of transport they continued to their final destination, and if not by train/tube, whether that was always their intention, or whether they only chose to avoid the train/tube once they realised their inbound train was delayed so as to defraud the Railway of its minimum connection time...

Not sure this is relevant to the OP, but could you evidence this claim?

 

[yorkie]

I would advise against claiming in these circumstances.

I booked an Off-Peak Return from London Paddington to Swansea for Friday 30th Sept. I selected the 18:48 train and had a seat reservation for it.

On Thursday 29th, I decided that I would travel earlier so reserved a seat on the 16:18.

When I set off from home on the Friday, I realised that if I rushed, I should be able to make the even earlier 15:48 from London Paddington. Sure enough, I tapped out through the Elizabeth Line gateline with my Oyster Card at 15:39, with plenty of time to get the 15:48.

Where was your journey actually from?

 

[AndyMe]

Where was your journey actually from?

It was from East Croydon and I won't be claiming.

 

[yorkie]

It was from East Croydon...

Unless you get free travel on TfL (or some other hefty discount) a through ticket would likely be cheaper than splitting at Paddington.

It's not a valid claim for the journey made. It is, in theory, a valid claim if you claimed your journey was just from Paddington, but that's at best a grey area and at worst fraudulent.

Also, by reserving later trains, it looks really suspicious if you then decided that you actually wanted to travel on an earlier service, which happened to be cancelled, after all.

Of course, the fact the journey was from East Croydon and you made an unexpected connection does validate that what you say is true, but at the same time invalidates the actual claim.

and I won't be claiming.

A wise choice in the circumstances.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is relevant to the time you should allow.
It is not relevant for a claim based solely on a ticket from the interchange point.

It is relevant. It’s not wise to selectively claim your journey started from a different place to where it actually did start.

 

[furlong]

Delay Repay is riddled with ambiguous scenarios leading to differences of opinion.

Iin the case of GWR here I think it is straightforward: "If you arrive at your destination 15 or more minutes late because your GWR train was delayed or cancelled, you can claim Delay Repay compensation."

If the train had not been cancelled, the passenger would have arrived at their destination on it and therefore they were late for that reason and can claim.

The ambiguity here is late with reference to what?
(a) When you would have arrived if the train had not been cancelled? Or
(b) When you would have arrived if you had been following a railway-produced itinerary?

While people deep into automation of payouts might prefer the defined-ness of (b), I think the most natural reading to the man in the street remains (a). At least for a passenger who cares about getting there as soon as possible and who isn't going to deliberately cause delay to their journey by not catching the first train they can.

 

[yorkie]

Yes there is ambiguity, but pushing some of the more 'generous' interpretations is unlikely to go down well. It could result in Delay Repay rules being amended, to the detriment of passengers, but that's for a new thread really.

 

[furlong]

But this cuts both ways - if someone deliberately doesn't get on an earlier, perhaps late-running, train which they could have caught ahead of their timetabled connecting train, that may prevent an otherwise-valid claim as it could be said they made an illogical choice to be late.

The contract does need to be sorted out so that we can get consistency at a national level and know where the parameters for discretion lie and avoid this situation where different companies are using different interpretations, possibly sometimes quite different to what a court would decide.