Can guards sell return penalty fare tickets?

[trebor79]

I had an advance ticket Liverpool Street to Diss. I'd booked myself on the 1530 but somehow got into my head the 1500 was my train. Despite at least 2 announcements prior to departure that penalty fare apply and to ensure that any "specific train only" tickets were for this train I neglected to do so.
Guard checked tickets soon after departure, and although he appeared to be glancing only cursorily at tickets he spotted mine said 1530 not 1500. I thought he'd misread it until I looked and the penny dropped.
So I had to buy a full price single. No point arguing, my own stupid fault.
It occurred to me afterwards that I could have bought a return for not much more money and then recovered my loss by using the return portion along with an advance single home on my next foray to London. But would the guard have been allowed to sell me a return in that circumstance?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't a Penalty Fare, by the way, it's a full-priced new ticket. Guards generally do not do PFs, only RPIs.

You are entitled to a full-fare (some debate I think as to the meaning of this) single to any station served directly by the train you are on. However some guards may agree to sell more than that.

 

[trebor79]

Ah that makes sense thanks. I think I recall the announcements making mention that a "full priced single" ticket would need to be bought if no valid ticket was presented.
I think he could see it was a genuine mistake but obviously he's doing his job and although I felt a bit cross I quickly realised I was cross at my own stupidity.

The irony is my train into London this morning was cancelled so I hopped on the previous service which was just pulling in as I arrived at the station. Platform staff said it would be fine but I had no way of proving that had I been similarly challenged. I believe in those circumstances you are entitled to travel on a following service only?

 

[maxbarnish]

Seems extremely harsh. I do wonder how the railways can meet their obligations under the Equality Act if they take such a punitive approach. People can have all sorts of conditions covered by the Act that could temporarily or permanently affect their cognition. I am not saying that all errors people make are covered and I cannot comment on the OP's situation, but I do know that if I made such an error, it would be something that could be discriminatory to punish - I end up having someone else review my bookings/double check my tickets before I travel. I don't think such equality issues will be solved anytime soon as there seems no will to do it. Yet surely evidence of deliberate evasion should be needed, and it seems a travesty of justice in my view that this currently isn't required at all - meaning that older people and the more vulnerable in society could be targeted.

 

[trebor79]

Yes, it does seem a bit anal I have to say, but I suppose you have to enforce the ticket restrictions otherwise it becomes a free for all.
Also I think I should have been sold an off peak single rather than an anytime single given the time of day. I guess this is the debate about what constitutes "full-fare" that @Bletchleyite refers to. I might write to GA about that on the off chance they refund the difference.

It would be more equitable for a surcharge for using the wrong train being inline with the delay repay one would be entitled to when the booked train is cancelled and you are forced to use a different service.

 

[Hadders]

It’s a tricky one.

If the cheapest available ticket is sold then there’s no point in anyone buying before boarding.

Similarly if someone travelling with an Advance ticket but on the wrong train is excesses on board to the cheapest available walk on fare without penalty then Advance tickets in effect become a form of flexible fare.

Penalty Fares should be issued for twice the appropriate fare, the ‘penalty’ aspect is having to pay double.

 

[trebor79]

Yes it is tricky. I still wonder what would have happened if my ticket had been checked properly on the way into London. I'm not sure "but the lady on the platform said..." would cut it.

 

[Trackman]

@trebor79 You should have been sold an off peak single, it clearly states this on the website.
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tic...tickets/advance-purchase-terms-and-conditions

 

[trebor79]

@Trackman thank you, I failed to find that page on their website. Contact form filled in (I refuse to deal with them over the phone as you just get connected to an offshore call centre who seem to have little clue of anything other than the most basic queries) explaining what occurred and asking how to obtain a refund of the overcharge.

 

[Haywain]

Seems extremely harsh. I do wonder how the railways can meet their obligations under the Equality Act if they take such a punitive approach. People can have all sorts of conditions covered by the Act that could temporarily or permanently affect their cognition. I am not saying that all errors people make are covered and I cannot comment on the OP's situation, but I do know that if I made such an error, it would be something that could be discriminatory to punish - I end up having someone else review my bookings/double check my tickets before I travel. I don't think such equality issues will be solved anytime soon as there seems no will to do it. Yet surely evidence of deliberate evasion should be needed, and it seems a travesty of justice in my view that this currently isn't required at all - meaning that older people and the more vulnerable in society could be targeted.

If someone who is covered by the equality act buys a ticket which restricts them to a specific train then it seems reasonable to me to assume that the ticket holder, in full possession of the facts, should make additional efforts to ensure that they are on the right train. I do not see how any form of disability or vulnerability can make the terms and conditions of a ticket any less enforceable.

 

[yorkie]

@trebor79 You should have been sold an off peak single, it clearly states this on the website.
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tic...tickets/advance-purchase-terms-and-conditions

Agreed.

Greater Anglia are not allowed to charge full fare tickets if there is a cheaper walk-up fare valid for the journey, such as an Off Peak fare. The rules allow them to charge the appropriate fare but not the full fare.

A forum member was overcharged by Greater Anglia back in 2012/2013 and the matter was brought to the attention of a Customer Relations Supervisor back then. It would be interesting to know if this practice is widespread among GA Guards. If it is, and the company has insufficient safeguards in place to either prevent or detect an overcharge, then this is yet another example of a serious breach of contract and consumer legislation, and another potential avenue for a class action lawsuit to be made against the company.

It's become increasingly obvious to me that overcharging customers is endemic in the rail industry. Companies such as Greater Anglia really ought to get their act together if they want to avoid legal action being taken against them.

@trebor79 you may want to bring this overcharge to the attention of the DfT and ORR.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I had an advance ticket Liverpool Street to Diss. I'd booked myself on the 1530 but somehow got into my head the 1500 was my train. Despite at least 2 announcements prior to departure that penalty fare apply and to ensure that any "specific train only" tickets were for this train I neglected to do so.
Guard checked tickets soon after departure, and although he appeared to be glancing only cursorily at tickets he spotted mine said 1530 not 1500. I thought he'd misread it until I looked and the penny dropped.
So I had to buy a full price single. No point arguing, my own stupid fault.
It occurred to me afterwards that I could have bought a return for not much more money and then recovered my loss by using the return portion along with an advance single home on my next foray to London. But would the guard have been allowed to sell me a return in that circumstance?

It should have been a change of ticket excess up to the appropriate single ticket plus a £10 admin fee, identical to what you would have paid had you changed the ticket at the booking office.

 

[Trackman]

It should have been a change of ticket excess up to the appropriate single ticket plus a £10 admin fee, identical to what you would have paid had you changed the ticket at the booking office.

A change of an Advance has to be done before the journey commences, the OP was already on the train.

 

[WesternLancer]

Given OP was on an earlier train than ticket req'd in this case, an option would have been (though I think not strictly permitted under Advance ticket regs) to buy a ticket to the next station where both trains called, await the correct train and then get on that. Might have worked and saved a few £.

Though the real issue here seems to be the gaurd charging the wrong replacement fare on the train. Hope OP gets that resolved.

 

[bunnahabhain]

A change of an Advance has to be done before the journey commences, the OP was already on the train.

In our revenue briefs for the last four or five years we were instructed to charge the difference between the AP and the appropriate single fare, and then that was subsequently altered to "plus the £10 admin fee" so that we weren't undercutting the booking office. I don't disagree that it *should* be a new ticket, however I work to the least punitive restriction that my company permits.

 

[yorkie]

In our revenue briefs for the last four or five years we were instructed to charge the difference between the AP and the appropriate single fare, and then that was subsequently altered to "plus the £10 admin fee" so that we weren't undercutting the booking office. I don't disagree that it *should* be a new ticket, however I work to the least punitive restriction that my company permits.

That's great to hear

The rules allow companies to charge a new ticket, at the cheapest fare that would be valid (eg. Super Off Peak with Railcard if appropriate) but if some companies are charging less than this, that is good customer service and reduces conflict.

 

[bunnahabhain]

That's great to hear

The rules allow companies to charge a new ticket, at the cheapest fare that would be valid (eg. Super Off Peak with Railcard if appropriate) but if some companies are charging less than this, that is good customer service and reduces conflict.

Its certainly been a thing on EMT/EMR for at least five years or more. I've only seen it published in staff briefings for "doing the right thing".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given OP was on an earlier train than ticket req'd in this case, an option would have been (though I think not strictly permitted under Advance ticket regs) to buy a ticket to the next station where both trains called, await the correct train and then get on that. Might have worked and saved a few £.

The usual VTWC approach has often seemed to be to just ask people to get off and await the correct train without paying any extra fare, but if they chose to remain on the train a new single would be due.

 

[trebor79]

The usual VTWC approach has often seemed to be to just ask people to get off and await the correct train without paying any extra fare, but if they chose to remain on the train a new single would be due.

I suggested to the guard that I do exactly that. But he still wanted to charge me the single fare to Colchester. As that was about half of the fare to Diss I decided paying was better than paying and having to waste 30 minutes on a platform.
Latest from GA is they want me to send photos of the tickets so they can make the overcharge right.

 

[trebor79]

Finally got round to sending a photo of the ticket last night. Reply this morning apologising and saying a cheque for the full value will be in the post! I only asked for the difference in price between the anytime and off peak, so more than happy with that!