Can diesel units couple with electric units?

[Gathursty]

I do recall instances where diesel/electric locomotives are attached to electric/diesel units to assist when stuck.

I'm not sure if it's possible that, for example, a Pacer could couple with a Class 323 but would be interested to know if such a situation has happened before.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are instances where couplings have been altered specifically to allow easier EMU/DMU mutual rescue, the best example possibly being the SN 171s, but it isn’t multiple working as normally known, just hauling a dead unit.
I think Pendolino and Voyager can rescue each other.

 

[hexagon789]

I do recall instances where diesel/electric locomotives are attached to electric/diesel units to assist when stuck.

I'm not sure if it's possible that, for example, a Pacer could couple with a Class 323 but would be interested to know if such a situation has happened before.

Not in the UK that I'm aware of as such, but in Denmark some of their InterCity diesel units work in multiple with electric units for part of a run on some routes I believe.

 

[jayiscupid]

Not in the UK that I'm aware of as such, but in Denmark some of their InterCity diesel units work in multiple with electric units for part of a run on some routes I believe.

The Danish IC3 & IC4 can run together.

They run them out of Copenhagen together and split them to serve different destinations along the route.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC3

 

[GusB]

I do recall instances where diesel/electric locomotives are attached to electric/diesel units to assist when stuck.

I'm not sure if it's possible that, for example, a Pacer could couple with a Class 323 but would be interested to know if such a situation has happened before.

Pacers have BSI couplers, while 323s use Tightlocks - so, I'd imagine that would be a "no".

 

[superalbs]

I think Pendolino and Voyager can rescue each other.

They can!

 

[yorksrob]

DEMU 205205 was wired up so that it could work in multiple with 3rd rail EMU's when it was refurbished in the 1980's. Not sure how often it did as it was always on the Marshlink whenever I saw it.

 

[hexagon789]

The Danish IC3 & IC4 can run together.

They run them out of Copenhagen together and split them to serve different destinations along the route.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC3

That's exactly what I was thinking of.

 

[edwin_m]

The Southern Region had a common multiple working system for EMUs, DEMUs, unpowered sets (4-TC) and even some locomotives. I don't think EMUs and DEMUs regularly worked together but I believe it was possible.

 

[Fincra5]

A 171 can provide Air for a 377 to rescue it but no Power. So the train is dragged dead.

 

[mallard]

I wonder if 769s will retain compatibility with 319s...

 

[Bletchleyite]

They can!

Indeed, they even have compatible TMS (the Voyager has Alstom TMS for exactly this reason and not the standard Bombardier TMS that is fitted to the Meridians). Though it's not true multiple working as only one of them is under power.

 

[43096]

As I recall it the Class 210 units were designed to operate in multiple with the 317s.

 

[furnessvale]

I do recall instances where diesel/electric locomotives are attached to electric/diesel units to assist when stuck.

I'm not sure if it's possible that, for example, a Pacer could couple with a Class 323 but would be interested to know if such a situation has happened before.

I've seen a DMU bank a stalled steam hauled freight out of the old platform No1 at Preston.

Does that count?

 

[JohnElliott]

The Southern Region had a common multiple working system for EMUs, DEMUs, unpowered sets (4-TC) and even some locomotives. I don't think EMUs and DEMUs regularly worked together but I believe it was possible.

It wasn't possible -- DEMUS used the same physical plugs as EMUs but the pinout was very different. Locomotives and TCs had the EMU pinout and so could interwork with them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I recall it the Class 210 units were designed to operate in multiple with the 317s.

Which (in theory) would've made them compatible with all other 25kv Mk3-based EMUs (318-322) and with 323s... so if GMPTE had been granted their requested bi-mode 210-derivatives we could have seen some quite interesting services to increase capacity on the crowded Piccadilly to Stockport section. 210 derivative+323 splitting at Hazel Grove, anyone?

 

[Jonfun]

Indeed, they even have compatible TMS (the Voyager has Alstom TMS for exactly this reason and not the standard Bombardier TMS that is fitted to the Meridians). Though it's not true multiple working as only one of them is under power.

Not this again(!)

It's not as simple as that. You can couple Voyagers mechanically to 390s and 222s if you want to, but - certainly XC examples, anyway - will not couple electrically. They have different setups and TMS software.

Someone has suggested VT modified their 221s to have a different software - I can't disprove the suggestion but I find it unlikely. One for the VT guys on here, I would think.

 

[James James]

In theory ICE TD could couple with ICE T and ICE 3, whether or not that was ever used is a separate question (and apparently the ability eventually disappeared due to software changes).

 

[73001]

I wonder if 769s will retain compatibility with 319s...

+1... If a pair were operating and a pantograph failed would one be able to run on diesel with the other on electric or if the wires went off could a 769 rescue a 319 and be driven from either unit? Hypothetical though most of that might be, it would make an interesting combination.

 

[Chrisgr31]

A 171 can provide Air for a 377 to rescue it but no Power. So the train is dragged dead.

Has it actually happened tough?

 

[alexl92]

I've seen a DMU bank a stalled steam hauled freight out of the old platform No1 at Preston.

Does that count?

Which class? I’d always been led to believe that 1st gen DMUs had just about enough power to move themselves and nothing more!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

*** In Theory ***
Traction of similar vintage or manufacturer can work multiple with each other. So for example turbostar and electrostar should be able to run in multi as could desiro fleets (350, 450 and 185) 210 was designed to be able to multi with 317 and theoretically can also work with 318-322 and tightlock DMUs. the most obvious is the compatibility of SR stock but the DEMU were not compatible with EMU

***In Practice ***
there havent been any recorded cases of it actually being tried and software compatibility has never been tested or offered by the manufacturers. It should be taken therefore that compatibility is neither possible nor offered. Only 33/1 and 73/1 on diesel has known to have worked multiple with a SR unit running off the juice. Usually 73 would also draw off the juice when in multi with a slammer but there have been occasions on gatwick express where it has powered the train on diesel and the GLV continued to provide traction power off the juice.

voyagers can rescue pendos and vice versa but they are not compatible for multi working and cannot power each other.

 

[bastien]

In theory ICE TD could couple with ICE T and ICE 3, whether or not that was ever used is a separate question (and apparently the ability eventually disappeared due to software changes).

ICD TDs doing anything at all is a bit touch and go though... Pity, they're high quality trains on the inside.

 

[davetheguard]

The Southern Region had a common multiple working system for EMUs, DEMUs, unpowered sets (4-TC) and even some locomotives. I don't think EMUs and DEMUs regularly worked together but I believe it was possible.

I seem to remember that at one time there was a train in the evening peak out of Waterloo in later B.R. days that split at Basingstoke with the EMU portion running on towards Southampton & the DEMU portion continuing to Salisbury. I hope my memory is not playing tricks; can anyone shed more light on this?

 

[twpsaesneg]

Just to throw this in - pre Mk4 DVT the buffered HST power cars were created to use in their place as a temporary measure.

I believe but not 100% sure that these could control the 91 at the rear of the set AND power themselves as well.

Edited to add - here's a video from YouTube.

 

[furnessvale]

Which class? I’d always been led to believe that 1st gen DMUs had just about enough power to move themselves and nothing more!

3 x 3 car BRCW. The signalman had put the passenger train into platform one behind the departing freight which then stalled on the bank to the north.

The passengers hanging out of the droplights had an interesting ride and it was all witnessed by many staff (including me) in Ladywell House.

 

[The_Engineer]

Which class? I’d always been led to believe that 1st gen DMUs had just about enough power to move themselves and nothing more!

Not true! Depending on configuration, they could be quite powerful. Many power twins operated more hilly routes in the North, and could give rapid acceleration when used on the flat. Also most DMU working were allowed to pull a trailing load of fitted vans, and can be seen doing so especially in the early days.

 

[matt_world2004]

I have seen s stock coupled with diesel trains at wembley park so I assume they can be.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Just to throw this in - pre Mk4 DVT the buffered HST power cars were created to use in their place as a temporary measure.

I believe but not 100% sure that these could control the 91 at the rear of the set AND power themselves as well.

Yes indeed they did. Originally the HST power car only provided ETH for the coaches as locos provide 1000v DC but mk3 HST use 415v AC, however this caused problems with the valenta engines and damaged the traction motors so they were adapted to also provide traction in conjunction with the 91.

They went like stink with 9000hp on tap on a load 8! XD

 

[birchesgreen]

I have seen s stock coupled with diesel trains at wembley park so I assume they can be.

You probably saw them in transit to/from Derby for mods.