Can anyone identify these tunnels

[Efini92]

Was watching the sir Alex documentary on bbc and whilst he was talking about Manchester it showed a 1 second clip of a train approaching these tunnels. My initial thought was standedge tunnels but the scenery on the left isn’t correct and the old tunnels were two single bores. Does any recognise this?


(Image shows a still taken from sir Alex documentary, showing 4 track railway and two tunnels)

 

[D6130]

Judging by the pristine state of the lineside and the telegraph pole route, I would say that photo dates from the late 1960s/early 1970s at the latest. The picture is quite blurred, but the tunnel portals do have a Midland Railway look about them. The ex-LMS colour light distant signals have the characteristic black-and-white striped posts and the right hand pair of lines, which are at a lower level than the left hand pair, have the characteristic Midland double-posted telegraph poles. Perhaps somewhere between St Pancras and Kettering?

 

[jfowkes]

Judging by the pristine state of the lineside and the telegraph pole route, I would say that photo dates from the late 1960s/early 1970s at the latest. The picture is quite blurred, but the tunnel portals do have a Midland Railway look about them. The ex-LMS colour light distant signals have the characteristic black-and-white striped posts and the right hand pair of lines, which are at a lower level than the left hand pair, have the characteristic Midland double-posted telegraph poles. Perhaps somewhere between St Pancras and Kettering?

I was thinking along similar lines - perhaps the Elstree Tunnels, approaching from the south? It looks very different in modern cab ride videos (lots more greenery and of course OLE), but the track curvature looks about right.

 

[John Webb]

I was thinking along similar lines - perhaps the Elstree Tunnels, approaching from the south? It looks very different in modern cab ride videos (lots more greenery and of course OLE), but the track curvature looks about right.

Not the Elstree Tunnels, they are both on the same level and from the south are approached by virtually straight track. There is a curve through Elstree station from the north, but far less in the way of trees on the approach to the tunnel.

 

[30907]

Not the Elstree Tunnels, they are both on the same level and from the south are approached by virtually straight track. There is a curve through Elstree station from the north, but far less in the way of trees on the approach to the tunnel.

Ampthill, then? Looking North. When would it have had c/l signals? Can't think of anywhere else (Thackley would be semaphores!).
Or is it from a simulation?

 

[32475]

Ampthill was my first thought.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Looking at Flickr photos, Ampthill doesn’t seem to have the same height difference between the pairs of lines

 

[John Webb]

Ampthill, then? Looking North. When would it have had c/l signals? Can't think of anywhere else (Thackley would be semaphores!).
Or is it from a simulation?

Distant colour-light signals were introduced by the LMS from the early 1930s onwards. They were the idea of A F Bound, appointed as their Signal Engineer in 1929. Those at St Albans were replaced in December 1938 - we have the actual paperwork relating to the change in our archive.

ADDITIONAL INFO:
A look at maps and gradient diagrams in "The Midland Railway - a Chronology" (Gough, 1989) suggests these may be the tunnels at Alfreton where the goods lines were at a lower level to the passenger lines.

 

[edwin_m]

A look at maps and gradient diagrams in "The Midland Railway - a Chronology" (Gough, 1989) suggests these may be the tunnels at Alfreton where the goods lines were at a lower level to the passenger lines.

While both portals are approached via right-hand curves, the south one has a footbridge which would be visible if present, and the passenger and goods lines would be the other way round for the north one.

I can't think of many other tunnels on 4-track Midland routes in rural areas. It's not the one at Trent, as the north end would has the river crossing and the curve at the south end is the wrong hand. Perhaps not Midland after all?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There does appear quite a marked downward land slope from left to right in the image, plus the fact that there is a tunnel, which does suggest a hilly location.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There does appear quite a marked downward land slope from left to right in the image, plus the fact that there is a tunnel, which does suggest a hilly location.

I am actually wondering if there really is actually no slope from left down to right at all. I think it is an illusion caused by the distorted picture. The top of the tunnel portals would normally be horizontal surely ?. Even if they did slope they still end up along the same line (that could be horizontal).

I am also thinking the curvature might not be so dramatic if the picture was not so distorted.

 

[Efini92]

I am actually wondering if there really is actually no slope from left down to right at all. I think it is an illusion caused by the distorted picture. The top of the tunnel portals would normally be horizontal surely ?. Even if they did slope they still end up along the same line (that could be horizontal).

I am also thinking the curvature might not be so dramatic if the picture was not so distorted.

Sorry it isn’t the best picture, will try and get a better one tomorrow. The tracks on the right are lower than the ones on the left.

 

[AlterEgo]

Definitely Ampthill.

There is no actual slope involved! The train is canted into the curve giving that impression, plus the picture is taken at an unfavourable angle on what looks like a projection screen.

The vegetation has changed and a little extra spoil has been put into the central embankment, but it cannot surely be anywhere else. Same tunnel designs too - note how the one on the right is very slightly different to the left with a lower profile...everything else checks out.

There is also a small white oblong in the picture in the OP, which may be this permanent way hut:

(slow it down to 0.25x!)

 

[edwin_m]

If you extend the line of the top of one of the portals across to the other one, it doesn't line up. To me this suggests either the tracks are at different levels or, possibly, one portal is further back into the hill.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Those tunnel mouths look elliptical and without symmetry about a vertical axis. So to me the picture seems distorted enough to cause confusion.

 

[Prime586]

If it is Ampthill, given the period details and that it's in colour, could it be stock footage they have pulled from 'Blue Pullman'?

 

[njamescouk]

I've had a go at straightening the picture out

 

[yoyothehobo]

Its Elstree Tunnel South Portal before the M1 was built.


Map shows the locations of the signal posts that are visible.

The slope geometry and tunnel portals match as well.

It definitely isnt Ampthill as the approach cuttings for that are much longer at both the North and South end.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've had a go at straightening the picture out

Thanks. Notice how the telegraph poles lean over (away from the centre of the curve). Before the trees all looked to be leaning over in agreement.
It certainly looks less distorted now.

In the original picture the tracks really seemed to dive steeply down towards the tunnel, which would be odd.

Still looks "twisted" and I wonder if the line is really straight because :-

Its Elstree Tunnel South Portal before the M1 was built.

View attachment 172437
Map shows the locations of the signal posts that are visible.

The slope geometry and tunnel portals match as well.

It definitely isnt Ampthill as the approach cuttings for that are much longer at both the North and South end.

Looks tempting.

The cutting slope is steeper on the right in both map and original picture.

Also that white patch in amongst the bushes - that could be a small hut and is shown on the map (between the two pairs of lines).

 

[edwin_m]

This is the best I can get from Google but for Elstree Tunnel south portal, not ideal but looks plausible.

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

 

[midland1]

I did think they could be Thackley tunnels near Shipley but a picture of the south west end portal is not right.

 

[30907]

Having checked a comparable (1:2.5k) OS for Ampthill I now agree with Elstree - no signal posts at Ampthill as well as the different topography.