Can All Line Rovers be bought from Guards?

[cf111]

I'm thinking of doing a 7-day 1ST ALR in the future but due to limited opening times at the station I'd be starting at, I'm wondering if such a ticket can be bought from a Guard on the train.

 

[causton]

Yes they can be bought from guards

 

[island]

And the guard will be very happy.

However, some TOCs have instructed their guards not to sell them, due to fraud concerns.

 

[TOCDriver]

And the guard will be very happy.

However, some TOCs have instructed their guards not to sell them, due to fraud concerns.

Can't see where the fraud comes into it. Just like any other ticket but much more expensive. You either pay for it or you don't; and if the later, the guard will not issue it!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think there was a case discussed on here a year or so ago involving stolen credit cards the led to some TOCs making this restriction on any high value ticket sales on board, not just the ALR?

 

[island]

Can't see where the fraud comes into it. Just like any other ticket but much more expensive. You either pay for it or you don't; and if the later, the guard will not issue it!

Card transactions getting charged back.

 

[cf111]

Thanks all! Does anyone know if ScotRail have told their guards not to sell them?

 

[Captain Chaos]

But seeing as every transaction I have made on an Avantix requires me to ring the bank when it is above £300 I'm not sure what the problem is?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If paying by card bear in mind that whatever card you have it will almost certainly be declined as the value will be over the floor limit for not getting authorisation. Very few TOCs seem to be able to phone up and get phone authorisation now (and I am led to believe this facility is being withdrawn altogether later in the year at the insistence of the card industry, but that is a different tale).

If you had an envelope full of cash I couldn't see a problem.

 

[Flamingo]

Given the problems Scotrail have had with First Class ALR being sold on-train, I'd be very surprised if they do them.

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/9518691.Newport_man_s___20_000_train_ticket_fraud/
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1010317

I know one of my colleagues had somebody asking to buy one on-train recently, and when he rang for authorisation of the visa card (to the males apparent reluctance) the card company said no way!

 

[paul1609]

If paying by card bear in mind that whatever card you have it will almost certainly be declined as the value will be over the floor limit for not getting authorisation. Very few TOCs seem to be able to phone up and get phone authorisation now (and I am led to believe this facility is being withdrawn altogether later in the year at the insistence of the card industry, but that is a different tale).

If you had an envelope full of cash I couldn't see a problem.

Its ludicrous that the TOCs dont have online authorisation yet. On the Kent and East Sussex railway we've had it for nearly 5 years admittedly primarily for bar bills on dining trains.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Its ludicrous that the TOCs dont have online authorisation yet. On the Kent and East Sussex railway we've had it for nearly 5 years admittedly primarily for bar bills on dining trains.

Yes and no. The K&ESR is a short line running at low speeds with a requirement for 1 or 2 terminals only, and is not running at high speeds quickly into and out of tunnels and cuttings, with thousands of portable machines owned by lots of different people spread all over the country.

Although I agree that it is silly.

I have been advised that the next update to the Avantix software, due sometime this year, will remove the ability to swipe and sign and also remove the ability to gain authorisation via the phone - both at the insistence of the card industry apparently. I understand the delay in launching this new update is the due to the complications in getting a suitable solution to the problems of declined cards across all TOCs - some TOCs can connect via the train wifi, some would probably be able to connect via bluetooth via the staff Blackberry phone and some can't do either of those as they still have ancient equipment such as the Dione devices. And of course there is the problem of how to process a card transaction in poor signal areas - I have no or patchy poor quality signal over at least 50% of the routes I work, if not more.

 

[Ferret]

I think there was a case discussed on here a year or so ago involving stolen credit cards the led to some TOCs making this restriction on any high value ticket sales on board, not just the ALR?

Not just that, but a member of the criminal fraternity managed to issue lots of them from a stolen Avantix. I believe FGW have had a further issue with the aforementioned member of the criminal fraternity and rover tickets recently....

 

[cf111]

Not as easy as I was imagining, clearly ! I can understand why mind you.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not just that, but a member of the criminal fraternity managed to issue lots of them from a stolen Avantix. I believe FGW have had a further issue with the aforementioned member of the criminal fraternity and rover tickets recently....

Dare I ask why this person, whoever it is, is not locked up?

 

[Ferret]

Dare I ask why this person, whoever it is, is not locked up?

Because this is the UK, and members of the criminal fraternity often avoid being locked up, despite there being overwhelming justification for such a sentence. In the absence of a prison sentence, you'd think the railway companies would just ban him, but of course this would be far too simple.

 

[headshot119]

Yes and no. The K&ESR is a short line running at low speeds with a requirement for 1 or 2 terminals only, and is not running at high speeds quickly into and out of tunnels and cuttings, with thousands of portable machines owned by lots of different people spread all over the country.

Although I agree that it is silly.

I have been advised that the next update to the Avantix software, due sometime this year, will remove the ability to swipe and sign and also remove the ability to gain authorisation via the phone - both at the insistence of the card industry apparently. I understand the delay in launching this new update is the due to the complications in getting a suitable solution to the problems of declined cards across all TOCs - some TOCs can connect via the train wifi, some would probably be able to connect via bluetooth via the staff Blackberry phone and some can't do either of those as they still have ancient equipment such as the Dione devices. And of course there is the problem of how to process a card transaction in poor signal areas - I have no or patchy poor quality signal over at least 50% of the routes I work, if not more.

So what happens if you don't have a chip & pin card (Foreign cards mainly)?

 

[BestWestern]

Some interesting things coming up here. Regarding the anticipated Avantix software update, I can understand the reasoning behind removing the ability to swipe and sign or manually key in the card details, but it does rather leave the rail industry in an unfortunate position of having absolutely no means of extracting payment from holders of certain, often perfectly legitimate, credit and debit cards.

Regarding 'ancient' Dione kit, I was amused to find recently that Rail Gourmet staff on a certain route now have live chip and pin devices, meaning the trolley bod has better equipment than the Guard!

As for the original question, TOCs have good reason to take issue with very high value items being sold through Avantix on board. The systems in place at a booking office are considerably more secure and far less likely to fall victim to fraud. There is also the issue of a Guard being on commission and thus, possibly in some cases, rather more keen to issue the ticket than a staff member who has nothing to gain and is more likely to refuse the sale if there is reason to be suspicious.

 

[reb0118]

So what happens if you don't have a chip & pin card (Foreign cards mainly)?

Some cards are chip n signature and some cards have no chip. At present these cards are swiped and the machine self authorises the transaction. Never has been a problem.

~~As an aside: very occasionally when selecting card payment on the avantix the machine self bypasses the "insert card into Thyron mode" and goes straight to the "swipe card screen". After swiping the card the transaction is auto authorised i.e. the avantix does not ask for a manually input authorisation number. This is before any card is presented by the passenger so I doubt it is a card issue. Have any other operators/customers come across this scenario?~~

 

[CockneySparrow]

Regarding 'ancient' Dione kit, I was amused to find recently that Rail Gourmet staff on a certain route now have live chip and pin devices, meaning the trolley bod has better equipment than the Guard!

no not that amusing

Where tickets are concerned I would imagine that any new payment device would have to be approved somewhere along the line so all TOC operate the same especially where the DFT are concerned

Where as the catering facilities on the train maybe dont fall into that category so there is more flexibility for TOC to collect money or its a third party company operating the snack service

 

[dmacw]

~~As an aside: very occasionally when selecting card payment on the avantix the machine self bypasses the "insert card into Thyron mode" and goes straight to the "swipe card screen". After swiping the card the transaction is auto authorised i.e. the avantix does not ask for a manually input authorisation number. This is before any card is presented by the passenger so I doubt it is a card issue. Have any other operators/customers come across this scenario?~~

Yes I've had that happen a couple of times. Re-pairing the Thyron seems to solve it.

 

[causton]

One main point about the new contactless pin pads that the catering staff have, is that they require a working internet connection! Therefore, last time I tried (on Gerald, the ATW 67 service) they actually had to take a manual imprint of my card which was cool as I'd never had it done before!

 

[TheEdge]

~~As an aside: very occasionally when selecting card payment on the avantix the machine self bypasses the "insert card into Thyron mode" and goes straight to the "swipe card screen". After swiping the card the transaction is auto authorised i.e. the avantix does not ask for a manually input authorisation number. This is before any card is presented by the passenger so I doubt it is a card issue. Have any other operators/customers come across this scenario?~~

Yes I've been getting that, although I find the only way to fix it is a reset of the PDA and Thyron.

I'm not liking this rumour of swipe being removed from Avantix. I tend to pick up a fairly high number of US servicemen/women at Brandon. Obviously they live on RAF Lakenheath and Mildenhall which to the best of my knowledge are exactly like the USA so they all have non chip cards (and a few times have tried to pay me in US Dollars!) How are they going to pay then?

 

[paul1609]

Having just returned from the US Navy base in Bahrain Ive had the reverse situation where my UK chip and pin card was continuously blocked because it was being swiped too many times.
The situation was eventually resolved by LLoyds when after not a few very expensive calls back to the UK I threatened to move my account elsewhere,

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes I've been getting that, although I find the only way to fix it is a reset of the PDA and Thyron.

I'm not liking this rumour of swipe being removed from Avantix. I tend to pick up a fairly high number of US servicemen/women at Brandon. Obviously they live on RAF Lakenheath and Mildenhall which to the best of my knowledge are exactly like the USA so they all have non chip cards (and a few times have tried to pay me in US Dollars!) How are they going to pay then?

I would expect that these foreign issued cards would be exempt as they are different. On Avantix the physical equipment isn't changing, it is only the software, so it would probably still accept those. I see quite a few from foreign visitors too, and they swipe and sign and self authorise.

 

[maniacmartin]

A minority of us brits have cards without chips too, or my all-time favourite to confuse, Chip+Signature cards.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

You can check a pin number is correct without being connected to anything. This is what happens with the increasingly-common personal card readers that you can use to authorise online banking transactions using your card. (I realise this is not the same as authorising a transaction with the bank).

 

[island]

A minority of us brits have cards without chips too, or my all-time favourite to confuse, Chip+Signature cards.

I had a non-chip Amex, but it expired

You can check a pin number is correct without being connected to anything. This is what happens with the increasingly-common personal card readers that you can use to authorise online banking transactions using your card. (I realise this is not the same as authorising a transaction with the bank).

That's true; some cards, however, instruct the terminal to authorize all transactions with the bank and these will automatically decline on Avantix Mobile.

 

[cav1975]

Presumably you could pay cash - or is that too old fashionned.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure I would feel safe carrying around a large chunk of cash with me in person.