Campaign for Better Transport : Reopenings Fund

[B&I]

So if the driver has a more convenient and quicker journey that allows him to spend more time with his family, have more free time etc, allows him to get to work on time and in a better mood, doesn't that make for a happier more productive and contented worker in general.

As for Rubber dust there needs to be more research on that and improving tyre technology.

Well they'd better get a move on. Or else people might start wondering whether those more convenient and quicker journeys are really worth the toll they are inflicting on the health who have no choice but to breathe in tyre debris. BTW, given that.endless road building simply leads to more traffic and more congestion, exactly how much quicker and more convenient are those journeys ?

 

[underbank]

exactly how mucj quicker and more convenient are those journeys ?

Much quicker if your house/work in on a bus route with just one bus per hour (or worse), or not on a bus route at all, and you're nowhere near a railway station, which is reality for huge numbers of people outside the major cities.

 

[47802]

Whilst its true that the people doing research and reports tend to be from an anti perspective if that's the right word the absence of any counter evidence from the Pro lobby it perhaps most telling - they don't seem to be able to come up with any counter evidence full stop.



Is this predict and provide? I think there's stacks of untapped suppressed rail demand so just build new rail lines look what happened when the Borders Line/Ebbw Vale reopened and more people than predicted used it........



But what is the criteria that decides? We currently have had since the Torys got back in every backswood Tory MP in the country promoting their local scheme(s) as "vital" to their local area and "unique circumstances mean its a national priority" theirs now so many of them approved or under active consideration it very much looks like its a national programme without the label. In a 40 mile radius of Newtown we have a bypass around Newtown under construction , the local Tory's are now lobbying hard for two bypasses that straddle the border one on the A483 Pant/Llanymynech and the other on the A458 @ Buttington. In Shrewsbury a "north west relief road" is being lobbied hard for despite there being bypass built in the early 90's which "replaced" the 1930's bypass....and there is a multi MP campaign to dual the entire A5 between Shrewsbury and Ruabon.



Electric Cars - no infrastructure to support recharging yet and also the range issue. None of the current electric cars can guarantee 100 miles between charges due to variable road conditions. Mr Petrolhead screeches to a halt a a filling station an in a couple of minutes hes off again with a full tank. Are people really going to undertake long distance journeys by electric car with the hassle of recharging? The prized convenience of your own vehicle would appear to undermined. This could be good news for long distance rail travel demand and railfreight.

Obviously we will anticipate the technology getting better as an answer but it isn't there yet not by a long shot.Electric Cars cant solve congestion they will sit bumper to bumper the same as petrol vehicles do.

Autonomous Vehicles - the high tech industry in search of funding/future profit follow the $ and £ behind this- the technology is massively way off yet even further than Electric. Just look at the Uber self driving scandal in Arizona. Secret E mails to the Governor , a pedestrian killed by a self driving car.

Of course you can have SMART cars that can inform you of congestion ahead and alternative routes but when there's no way round what does it do flash up "Stay AT HOME TOO CONGESTED" .........and of course the other conundrum heres all these Self driving cars being safe and cautious and respecting each other what happens when Mr Petrolhead who wont give up on self controlled driving appears weaving in and out of them. Do they all STOP because its dangerous?

I have a friend who owns a Tesla and have been in it with him, and OK its not exactly a cheap Electric Car as Electric Cars go, but to put it bluntly its fantastic, he says the practical range of his Tesla is about 180 miles that's good enough for most trips he makes and charging points are increasing rapidly both BP and Shell are putting charging points into their Petrol Stations, and most if not all the big manufacturers will launch electric cars in the couple of years, Nissans new Leaf has longer range, I talked to a Nissan dealer about 18 months ago and he said they couldn't make enough of them for the demand and that was for the old model. I have also seen Tesla Autopilot in action and its quite impressive in what it can do even though that's no where near a fully autonomous vehicle.

No it wont solve congestion especially in the big cities but it might negate the need to spend x hundred million on opening a Rail Line to Town X with a population of about 10,000.

 

[Llanigraham]

Well they'd better get a move on. Or else people might start wondering whether those more convenient and quicker journeys are really worth the toll they are inflicting on the health who have no choice but to breathe in tyre debris. BTW, given that.endless road building simply.leads to more traggoc and more congestion, exactly how mucj quicker and more convenient are those journeys ?

For example: here to Cardiff by car, 2 hours. By bus, 2 different busses and between 3.5 and 5 hours. By train, 2 different trains and between 3 and 4 hours. Ergo, I go by car!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I have a friend who owns a Tesla and have been in it with him, and OK its not exactly a cheap Electric Car as Electric Cars go, but to put it bluntly its fantastic, he says the practical range of his Tesla is about 180 miles that's good enough for most trips he makes and charging points are increasing rapidly both BP and Shell are putting charging points into their Petrol Stations, and most if not all the big manufacturers will launch electric cars in the couple of years, Nissans new Leaf has longer range, I talked to a Nissan dealer about 18 months ago and he said they couldn't make enough of them for the demand and that was for the old model. I have also seen Tesla Autopilot in action and its quite impressive in what it can do even though that's no where near a fully autonomous vehicle.

No it wont solve congestion especially in the big cities but it might negate the need to spend x hundred million on opening a Rail Line to Town X with a population of about 10,000.

Plonking folk in electric cars and taking them to the edge of a city and then driving in that city just adds to the problem of congestion and land use (you still have store them for 95% of the time) someone going by train at least doesn't add to congestion and doesn't need a piece of land 15 foot by 5 foot as storage.

The massive piece of naivety in the Reshaping Report was the expectation that people who previously travelled the whole way by train would magically make their own way between the former Mainline Junction station and the station on the branch line that was closed. This interface needs serious attention.

 

[Mikey C]

Plonking folk in electric cars and taking them to the edge of a city and then driving in that city just adds to the problem of congestion and land use (you still have store them for 95% of the time) someone going by train at least doesn't add to congestion and doesn't need a piece of land 15 foot by 5 foot as storage.

The massive piece of naivety in the Reshaping Report was the expectation that people who previously travelled the whole way by train would magically make their own way between the former Mainline Junction station and the station on the branch line that was closed. This interface needs serious attention.

Isn't the answer then either Parkway stations or park and ride schemes, as many people live in places either too small to justify a rail service/station reopening or where one never existed in the first place?

 

[muddythefish]

Exactly! It takes a long time to get a long freight across a crossing at 30mph (max), compared to a Pendolino whizzing through.

The original post claimed the WCML is busier than ever. Hest Bank in the 1960s used to see up to 40 movements an hour for large parts of the day. Now it's more like 10-15. Not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[muddythefish]

So if the driver has a more convenient and quicker journey that allows him to spend more time with his family, have more free time etc, allows him to get to work on time and in a better mood, doesn't that make for a happier more productive and contented worker in general.

Would you care to name such a driver ? Most road journeys, particularly in rush hours, are anything but a "happy" experience.

The problem is, in many parts of the country, there is no alternative.

And no, more road building will not solve the porblem

 

[The Planner]

The original post claimed the WCML is busier than ever. Hest Bank in the 1960s used to see up to 40 movements an hour for large parts of the day. Now it's more like 10-15. Not sure what you're trying to say.

40 movements an hour is a train every 90 seconds, 30 is one every two, presumably they were all going very slowly then....

 

[muddythefish]

40 movements an hour is a train every 90 seconds, 30 is one every two, presumably they were all going very slowly then....

Easily 30....it's only 15 an hour on each line. The line was busy then

 

[Bald Rick]

Easily 30....it's only 15 an hour on each line. The line was busy then

I wasn’t around at the time, but I find it hard to believe there was a train every 3 minutes, especially with slow moving freight trains. At 30mph (loose coupled freights as prevalent in the 60s) it takes a long time to clear a standard signalling block section on a main line.

 

[Ianno87]

I wasn’t around at the time, but I find it hard to believe there was a train every 3 minutes, especially with slow moving freight trains. At 30mph (loose coupled freights as prevalent in the 60s) it takes a long time to clear a standard signalling block section on a main line.

Presumably, boxes (thus block sections) would have been located something like (don't know, just a guess - someone who knows better can fill in)

Carnforth station
Carnforth South/Crag Bank
Bolton-le-Sands
Hest Bank
Morecambe South Jn
Lancaster North/Lune Viaduct
Lancaster station

No way could a 30mph freight progress between two consecutive boxes in less than 3 minutes (never mind allowance for signaller action between trains to accept from box in rear/offer to box im advance, etc.)

 

[muddythefish]

Anorak on, I've looked at some of my old spotting books from hours spent at Hest Bank in the late 1960s, and they confirm my previous post. There were quite alot of light engine movements, from Carnforth to Heysham and back in connection with the freight coming out of the docks.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anorak on, I've looked at some of my old spotting books from hours spent at Hest Bank in the late 1960s, and they confirm my previous post. There were quite alot of light engine movements, from Carnforth to Heysham and back in connection with the freight coming out of the docks.

Fair enough, but that just suggests that that rather short section of the WCML was busy (and being used rather inefficiently!)

 

[muddythefish]

Fair enough, but that just suggests that that rather short section of the WCML was busy (and being used rather inefficiently!)

I would say the level of traffic at Hest Bank now is like it used to be on Sundays in the 1960s with long intervals between trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would say the level of traffic at Hest Bank now is like it used to be on Sundays in the 1960s with long intervals between trains.

Fair enough.

Which goes to show that the railway has changed a lot since the 1960s. Rather helps prove the point that when looking at future rail investment we should look forwards at future demand and not backwards at how it used to be.

 

[B&I]

I have a friend who owns a Tesla and have been in it with him, and OK its not exactly a cheap Electric Car as Electric Cars go, but to put it bluntly its fantastic, he says the practical range of his Tesla is about 180 miles that's good enough for most trips he makes and charging points are increasing rapidly both BP and Shell are putting charging points into their Petrol Stations, and most if not all the big manufacturers will launch electric cars in the couple of years, Nissans new Leaf has longer range, I talked to a Nissan dealer about 18 months ago and he said they couldn't make enough of them for the demand and that was for the old model. I have also seen Tesla Autopilot in action and its quite impressive in what it can do even though that's no where near a fully autonomous vehicle.

No it wont solve congestion especially in the big cities but it might negate the need to spend x hundred million on opening a Rail Line to Town X with a population of about 10,000.

But what about the price of building more roads to drive all these electric cars round on ? Why does that have to be ignored ?

 

[Bald Rick]

But what about the price of building more roads to drive all these electric cars round on ? Why does that have to be ignored ?

It shouldn’t be ignored. But when a new road costs broadly the same as a new railway, and the road provides better utility to more people, then you can’t ignore the price of building new railways either.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Isn't the answer then either Parkway stations or park and ride schemes, as many people live in places either too small to justify a rail service/station reopening or where one never existed in the first place?

For all the Reshaping Report claimed to be evidence based and shaped by clever people it never addressed the issue of "how do people get to the station" . Whilst on one hand the reports premise was everybody was going to rush out and buy a car there was no thought at all into how to accommodate those that then might want to drive to the station. We've had piecemeal conversions of old good yards where the land has been retained and BR to its credit built some parkway stations in the 70's/80's. Aside from Chiltern (Warwick, Oxford Parkway car park extensions theirs been no real focus on accommodating how people get to the railway in recent years.

We can see this oversight to a large degree in HS2 - massive amounts of rail capacity but aside from a Light Rail link between Derby and Nottingham and a big car park at Toton...........

 

[Gareth Marston]

It shouldn’t be ignored. But when a new road costs broadly the same as a new railway, and the road provides better utility to more people, then you can’t ignore the price of building new railways either.

The bypass there currently building around Newtown started off as £55 million rose to £80 Million and suspiciously started being a £55 million again when this was pointed out, I'm told confidentially its actual cost will be nearer £100 million. Its less than 3 miles in length. Dualling a 4/5 mile section of the A465 road through the Clydach Gorge in South Wales has apparently gone over its £50 million a mile budget way before completion. And the Welsh Government pet project the duplicate M4 around Newport is £110 million a mile before a sod is cut......

The Borders Railway cost c£11 million to reinstate......

There a quite a few projects where were talking 10 miles or less Hirwuan, Nelson (S Wales), Oxford Cowley, Tavistock, Wisbech, Startford to Honeybourne, others just over Skipton to Colne, Keswick etc however I think most people get very upset about proposals for say Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.

Even the gap between Buttington Junction and the Heritage Railway at Llanymynech near me is just 7 miles

 

[yorksrob]

It shouldn’t be ignored. But when a new road costs broadly the same as a new railway, and the road provides better utility to more people, then you can’t ignore the price of building new railways either.

One also shouldn't ignore the fact that whereas the new road is merely enhancing existing capacity, the new railway is providing a new service to a large number of people who wouldn't otherwise have access to it. Yet all the analysis seems to.

 

[47802]

The bypass there currently building around Newtown started off as £55 million rose to £80 Million and suspiciously started being a £55 million again when this was pointed out, I'm told confidentially its actual cost will be nearer £100 million. Its less than 3 miles in length. Dualling a 4/5 mile section of the A465 road through the Clydach Gorge in South Wales has apparently gone over its £50 million a mile budget way before completion. And the Welsh Government pet project the duplicate M4 around Newport is £110 million a mile before a sod is cut......

The Borders Railway cost c£11 million to reinstate......

There a quite a few projects where were talking 10 miles or less Hirwuan, Nelson (S Wales), Oxford Cowley, Tavistock, Wisbech, Startford to Honeybourne, others just over Skipton to Colne, Keswick etc however I think most people get very upset about proposals for say Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.

Even the gap between Buttington Junction and the Heritage Railway at Llanymynech near me is just 7 miles

Where are you getting £11 million for the Borders Railway wasn't the cost in the region of £350 million and that was for a route that was substancially intact. A figure of £650 million has been banded about to reinstate the whole route based on what it cost to open the existing bit although I suspect it would cost more as we know the area around Melrose will be difficult for starters, but even at £650 million I don't think that represents good value for money for the level of population it will serve but obviously the Scottish Government has a different attitude, but personally I would rather see the money spent on electrification to Aberdeen for instance, and concentrate the money on what the railway does best, ie provide Intercity and Commuter services to our major towns and cities.

Some of the other schemes I believe £20 million has been quoted for a very basic railway to Tavistock but at that sort of cost it may be worth considering and I suspect its more these sort of projects that the government might consider and not ones that will cost X hundred million.

 

[underbank]

The original post claimed the WCML is busier than ever. Hest Bank in the 1960s used to see up to 40 movements an hour for large parts of the day. Now it's more like 10-15. Not sure what you're trying to say.

Over the years there have been campaigns to re-open the main line platforms at Carnforth, only for the official response to be that the line is too busy to allow for stopping trains on the main line itself. There is no land for passing loops at the original sites of the Hest Bank nor Bolton Le Sands stations either. So, perhaps it's the railway officials who are wrong if people think that there really is scope within the timetable for stoppers on the main line??

 

[squizzler]

Myself I feel that the return of investment to rail is most welcome and train travel should continue to receive the lions share of investment. Why? The road network has had well over 2000 years of development, motoring subsidy* has also dominated transport policy during the New Elizabethan age of unprecedented national wealth. The railway network has, by contrast, enjoyed less than 200 years development of which expanding the network actually involved barely the first half of that time.

Now for Anti Road people like yourself there are potentially two new issues to contend with. Firstly Electric Cars and Hybrids are going to arrive in a big way in the next few years and that going mute the argument about localised pollution caused by Road Vehicles. Secondly well it seems to depend on which manufacturer and which so called expert you talk to as to how quickly fully Autonomous Vehicles will arrive, but lets take a conservative view and say its within the next 15 years even though some are still saying 2020. So in the context of this thread do we spend x hundred million to open a line to Town X which itself even if approved tomorrow will take quite a few years to build, or perhaps instead do we look at improving the roads to at least the nearest railhead from Town X that can be used by non driverless vehicles and eventually driverless vehicles? I would vote for the latter in all probability.

I see it as the reverse. One of the chief reasons for building all these bypasses and ring roads was because having cars stuck in town with their engines idling was so detrimental to urban quality of life. If a street of stationary cars becomes environmentally benign, why would society make so much effort to remove them from town?

The driverless car thing strikes me as even more of an own goal for those advocating greater subsidies for the highways. I thought they were meant to deliver greater efficiency in the use of road space, right? And greater safety too (don’t laugh please). Those who kept telling us that the motoring lot were so much more innovative than the railway industry are surely not going to tell us that intelligently directed electric cars will continue to require more of the same sort of road space as their traditional, dinosaur burning counterparts?

Those who advocate highway expansion have made a rod for their own backs with the driverless cars. Or should we say: a bi-mode for their own tracks? Many of the same arguments put forward to defer electrification on the basis of bi-mode versatility could be adapted to defer highway building in the expectation of greater efficiencies from automation.


* A note on “subsidy” versus “investment”. It used to be popular to frame highway spending as investment and that in public transport as subsidy. This strikes me as counterintuitive for the following reason. An “investment” is an expenditure that is expected to derive a long term (i.e. sustainable) positive return. Unfettered car use is considered unsustainable due to resource depletion and environmental pollution. Rail transport is considered much more sustainable not only because it is more efficient but also most sources of energy can be adapted to drive trains. Might I suggest therefore that spending in rail should be considered “investment”, whereas it is that in motoring which might be more properly termed “subsidy”?