Camp Hill Line, Birmingham

[Halish Railway]

Are there any proposals to reopen the centre disused platform for Redditch / Bromsgrove bound trains and use the existing platform 2 as a Camp Hill line platform, with occasional use by Cross City trains to make it easier to path a through train going towards Camp Hill.

I admit that some remodelling would be required to make the service as reliable as possible but it would be ridiculous if we just had to accept the compromise of having a reduced service in the long term on the Cross City line.

Although the IRP did through a cat amongst the pidgins by mentioning a possible development of having HS2 trains continue on the Southwest which would result in Kings Norton being remodelled taking this into account.

My suggestion for a remodelling:

 

[The Planner]

Are there any proposals to reopen the centre disused platform for Redditch / Bromsgrove bound trains and use the existing platform 2 as a Camp Hill line platform, with occasional use by Cross City trains to make it easier to path a through train going towards Camp Hill.

I admit that some remodelling would be required to make the service as reliable as possible but it would be ridiculous if we just had to accept the compromise of having a reduced service in the long term on the Cross City line.

Although the IRP did through a cat amongst the pidgins by mentioning a possible development of having HS2 trains continue on the Southwest which would result in Kings Norton being remodelled taking this into account.

My suggestion for a remodelling:
View attachment 109152

Kings Norton may get remodelled as part of a Midlands Rail Hub scheme which is in development, but nothing to do with HS2.

 

[centraltrains]

I admit that some remodelling would be required to make the service as reliable as possible but it would be ridiculous if we just had to accept the compromise of having a reduced service in the long term on the Cross City line.

I think the plan/hope is that that will only be the case until 2030.

Train stations at Moseley, Kings Heath and Hazelwell set to reopen

But a meeting of the West Midlands Combine Authority heard the existing Cross-City Line will drop down from six to four trains per hour due to a prediction of reduced demand until 2030

www.birminghammail.co.uk

But a meeting of the West Midlands Combine Authority heard the existing Cross-City Line will drop down from six to four trains per hour due to a prediction of reduced demand until 2030

Surely these reduced frequencies make rail travel overall look less desirable? Over on the Snow Hill branches its 20-40 minute frequency gaps, although apparently they're looking to reintroduce those services towards the end of 2022, it suggests the Camp Hill line is the main reason why they aren't looking to do the same for the Cross City which I think feels a bit unfair. Just put the investment into Kings Norton!

 

[philosopher]

Could they have the Camp Hill line trains running all stations to Longbridge then on either Bromsgrove or Redditch, which would allow six trains per hour from Kings Norton to Longbridge. This assumes there are going to be two trains per hour on the Camp Hill Line.

 

[craigybagel]

Could they have the Camp Hill line trains running all stations to Longbridge then on either Bromsgrove or Redditch, which would allow six trains per hour from Kings Norton to Longbridge. This assumes there are going to be two trains per hour on the Camp Hill Line.

Only if they electrified Camp Hill I would have thought. Trying to timetable a DMU all stops to Redditch or especially Bromsgrove with the Lickey Incline to deal with would be difficult.

 

[train_lover]

Could they have the Camp Hill line trains running all stations to Longbridge then on either Bromsgrove or Redditch, which would allow six trains per hour from Kings Norton to Longbridge. This assumes there are going to be two trains per hour on the Camp Hill Line.

This could happen in theory but it's definitely not something that will happen.

 

[Watershed]

Could they have the Camp Hill line trains running all stations to Longbridge then on either Bromsgrove or Redditch, which would allow six trains per hour from Kings Norton to Longbridge. This assumes there are going to be two trains per hour on the Camp Hill Line.

Apart from requiring a substantial length of diesel running under the wires*, the value of 6tph is primarily in the busy section from University to New Street.

Whilst there's also the Cardiff and Hereford services that call at University, these are often already full of people who have boarded earlier in the journey. They also don't fall very clockface, whereas the previous 6tph Cross City service catered reasonably well to the continuous flow of commuters and students at peak times.

To be honest, I can't see a lopsided 4tph being sufficient in the long run, but without upgrade works at Kings Norton (i.e. adding an electrified "turnback" platform) there isn't really any alternative. Effectively you've got to rob Peter to pay Paul.

*There is no prospect of Camp Hill being electrified anytime soon - there aren't even any proposals for it.

 

[The Planner]

*There is no prospect of Camp Hill being electrified anytime soon - there aren't even any proposals for it.

The stations were designed to not preclude it. It is on the list to be developed but Moseley tunnel is going to be the issue.

 

[the sniper]

Is it the plan at this point to change to a 15 minute interval, if 4tph is here for the foreseeable future, or will the '10-20-10-20' be retained indefinitely to keep the paths? Appreciate it'll require a major recast.

 

[tommy2215]

Surely changing the paths so the 4tph is every 15 minutes would cause clashes with CrossCountry and Hereford services

 

[Watershed]

Surely changing the paths so the 4tph is every 15 minutes would cause clashes with CrossCountry and Hereford services

Well precisely. So it won't work without a major recast of those paths. And as soon as you recast those, you're locking yourself into 4tph indefinitely.

The easiest solution is just to keep things as they are, even though that results in the worst passenger outcome.

 

[Class 170101]

Are there any proposals to reopen the centre disused platform for Redditch / Bromsgrove bound trains and use the existing platform 2 as a Camp Hill line platform, with occasional use by Cross City trains to make it easier to path a through train going towards Camp Hill.

I admit that some remodelling would be required to make the service as reliable as possible but it would be ridiculous if we just had to accept the compromise of having a reduced service in the long term on the Cross City line.

Although the IRP did through a cat amongst the pidgins by mentioning a possible development of having HS2 trains continue on the Southwest which would result in Kings Norton being remodelled taking this into account.

My suggestion for a remodelling:
View attachment 109152

Would surely be cheaper just to re-number the existing Platform 2 to Platform 4 and re-se the platform ace opposite Platform 1 as Platform 2 (With passive provision for Platform 3 on the other side of the island) plus station works rather than install new points (as per diagram) with extra OLE and Signalling alterations - which in themselves are damn expensive?

 

[73128]

Apart from requiring a substantial length of diesel running under the wires*, the value of 6tph is primarily in the busy section from University to New Street.

Whilst there's also the Cardiff and Hereford services that call at University, these are often already full of people who have boarded earlier in the journey. They also don't fall very clockface, whereas the previous 6tph Cross City service catered reasonably well to the continuous flow of commuters and students at peak times.

a reason for 4tph through to Redditch and Bromsgrove with an additional two circling via Camp Hill. Would need some dmus with good acceleration (c.f. emus) if electrifcation is not on the cards yet.

 

[The Planner]

a reason for 4tph through to Redditch and Bromsgrove with an additional two circling via Camp Hill. Would need some dmus with good acceleration (c.f. emus) if electrifcation is not on the cards yet.

Adding another 2tph across Barnt Green could be interesting...

 

[Class 170101]

Adding another 2tph across Barnt Green could be interesting...

Surely another 2tph would take us back to where we were pre covid on basis of 4tph West Midlands services via University?

 

[The Planner]

Surely another 2tph would take us back to where we were pre covid on basis of 4tph West Midlands services via University?

I was under the impression the poster wanted 4tph to Redditch as well?

 

[Trainfan344]

Surely the best solution would be a small number of Stradler bi-mode flirts. Diesel round the camp hill and then pan up and electric to wherever

 

[centraltrains]

if we're speculating solutions... Is there a much call for interchange at Kings Norton? Could possibly be cheaper to install a turnback switch at Hazelwell instead?

 

[The Planner]

if we're speculating solutions... Is there a much call for interchange at Kings Norton? Could possibly be cheaper to install a turnback switch at Hazelwell instead?

No it wouldn't as its signalling interventions to do that, Kings Norton is ready made for it even if its a pain.

 

[vlad]

Would surely be cheaper just to re-number the existing Platform 2 to Platform 4 and re-se the platform ace opposite Platform 1 as Platform 2 (With passive provision for Platform 3 on the other side of the island) plus station works rather than install new points (as per diagram) with extra OLE and Signalling alterations - which in themselves are damn expensive?

I understand from your post that the platform for Redditch trains is platform 2. When I lived in Brum (admittedly this was over 10 years ago) that was platform 4 - and according to RTT it still is. When was it renumbered?

 

[Sprinter107]

As far as I'm aware, Kings Norton platforms are still numbered as they always have been. Platform 1 for trains to Birmingham via the West Suburban line, Platform 2 for Southbound, currently disused, Platform 3 for trains to Birmingham via Camp Hill also currently disused, and Platform 4 for Southbound Cross City trains.

Interestingly, in an article in Modern Railways around about June 2020, there was a diagram that suggested platform 2 could be wired, and southbound Cross City trains would use that instead of Platform 4. Whether that will be what does happen i don't know, but it would make sense, and means that 3 and 4 could be exclusively for trains to and from the Camp Hill line.

 

[William3000]

I understand the Camp Hill proposals would involve new half hourly services between Birmingham Moor Street and King’s Norton.

This would involve a new chord to the east of Bordersley station and new stations at Moseley Village, King’s Heath, and Pineapple Road.

Would it require the reinstatement of the disused island platform at King’s Norton and/or the reopening of platform 5 at Birmingham Moor Street - I heard there was a proposal to build a 6th platform to the south of platform 5 at Moor Street.

In terms of services I wonder whether there is any potential to enhance Bordersley and give it a more regular service - I appreciate it is very lightly used but it’s likely to be in an area that will see quite a lot of regeneration in the next few years.

A half-hourly service seems quite minimal and I’m sure if this was London it would have a least a 15 minute frequency but perhaps that will come in time.

 

[The Planner]

I understand the Camp Hill proposals would involve new half hourly services between Birmingham Moor Street and King’s Norton.

This would involve a new chord to the east of Bordersley station and new stations at Moseley Village, King’s Heath, and Pineapple Road.

Would it require the reinstatement of the disused island platform at King’s Norton and/or the reopening of platform 5 at Birmingham Moor Street - I heard there was a proposal to build a 6th platform to the south of platform 5 at Moor Street.

In terms of services I wonder whether there is any potential to enhance Bordersley and give it a more regular service - I appreciate it is very lightly used but it’s likely to be in an area that will see quite a lot of regeneration in the next few years.

A half-hourly service seems quite minimal and I’m sure if this was London it would have a least a 15 minute frequency but perhaps that will come in time.

It will be from New St to start with. If the Bordesley chords are built then the extra platforms will be needed for several other services. It doesnt need alterations at Kings Norton for just the Camp Hill service, but it will if the Midland Rail Hub enhancements get anywhere, the plan is to cut a bay into the island platform but that is all. Bordesley will close if the chords happen.

 

[snowball]

It's discussed at some length in the current (March) issue of Modern Railways, which has a feature on the West Midlands. There are some track diagrams.

The 3 new stations are going ahead anyway, but the new chords are further off, and it's possible only one of the chords will be built if the government is feeling stingy.

 

[Liam L]

Any ideas on why the Camp Hill Line is blocked this week and what work is taking place?
Thanks

 

[The Planner]

Any ideas on why the Camp Hill Line is blocked this week and what work is taking place?
Thanks

Huge drainage job and some work on the new stations.

 

[Baz2000]

Its also why the Cross City can't return to 6tph.

Hi according to what ive seen and read, the reason they say is because the camp hill line trains will use platform 2 at Kings norton and cross tracks, but from my point of view if they ran the cross-city line service every 15 mins which would be better than now, that would still give a 7 min window to change trains etc, we in the south part of the would like it (Cross City) to go back to 6 TPH, also i have seen that in the future the the camphill line will be 3 TPH thats a long way of yet, anyway the cross city line needs 5 TPH now getting much busier,

 

[The Planner]

Hi according to what ive seen and read, the reason they say is because the camp hill line trains will use platform 2 at Kings norton and cross tracks, but from my point of view if they ran the cross-city line service every 15 mins which would be better than now, that would still give a 7 min window to change trains etc, we in the south part of the would like it (Cross City) to go back to 6 TPH, also i have seen that in the future the the camphill line will be 3 TPH thats a long way of yet, anyway the cross city line needs 5 TPH now getting much busier,

No one is going to alter the Cross City to 15 minute intervals if they have to put it back to 6tph in the future, the rewrite is too big. The track relaying was on top of new drainage. If the Cross City was 6tph you effectively have 4 minutes to turn the train around, on a line like that the performance risk is too large, hence the plan for the centre platform turnback.

 

[newtownmgr]

Cross City will be staying at 4 tph. As regards the Camp Hill services, I’m not 100% certain that it will just be a New St - Kings Norton shuttle as that will not be financially viable, especially in the current climate without a massive subsidy. I suspect that it may involve an additional Worcester service for one of the services. Will be interesting to see what actually happens. At present only Worcester sign the Camp Hill line & only a limited number of New St drivers are being trained on the 196’s. Obviously like everything that can change.

 

[The Planner]

Cross City will be staying at 4 tph. As regards the Camp Hill services, I’m not 100% certain that it will just be a New St - Kings Norton shuttle as that will not be financially viable, especially in the current climate without a massive subsidy. I suspect that it may involve an additional Worcester service for one of the services. Will be interesting to see what actually happens. At present only Worcester sign the Camp Hill line & only a limited number of New St drivers are being trained on the 196’s. Obviously like everything that can change.

Its a political service, it will end up at Kings Norton.