Cameron Promises EU Referendum

[tbtc]

Interestingly, a YouGov poll on the left of the headline I linked shows that 40% of those questioned would sooner stay in the EU. 34% said no, 20% were unsure.

Interesting. The anti-Europe side make a lot more noise about their opinion, but I'm interested to think that the majority are pro-Europe

I agree about Farage and UKIP, but the inconvenient truth is that the former referendum was about a trade organisation, and the current dominant forces in the EU are tending towards the "Union" part of the title. I would vote to stay in, but not if there was a tight union of economic, fiscal and banking policy and law. The "EU" is poorly defined, and is being used as a vague term to justify every possible argument.

The point is that Europe was one thing that we did have a referendum on - the only UK-wide one until the AV vote a few months ago. There was no referendum on various other big decisions (wars, welfare state, NHS, fox hunting etc), yet the UKIP side like to bring up the fact that we never had a referendum on Europe as if this makes it a somewhat unique thing (whereas the truth is that we don't tend to bother with referendums on anything, unlike the Swiss)

Being told what to do without having a say in it even has a phrase - 'fax democracy'.

Norway is basically 'de facto' EU without actually officially being in it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16594370

Norway seem to have all of the responsibility of following EU rules without the influence to actually affect things - worst of both worlds?

Presumably about as much as Mr Salmond will stop banging on about Scottish independence if they lose their vote

True. Salmond is a much cannier politician than Clegg because he's waited a long time before calling a referendum on his pet subject (Scottish Independendance), and has gradually built up support for it - rather than calling a referendum as soon as he could and losing because he never convinced the rest of the country about the importance of the subject (Clegg and AV). If Salmond loses, I hope he'll give up on politics.

 

[table38]

Do people believe that having no say in EU matters, but still having to adopt many aspects, is really a better situation?!?

With 27 member states, and with unelected and unaccountable EU officials making the rules, I suppose it depends on how much say you think we get now

 

[PHILIPE]

It is only right there should be a referendum. Following the vote in 1975 the EU has developed into a body which now overrules member countries. This is, in effect, a constitutional change impacting on the UK citizenship. It is only fair that because of this the people should have a say. Referendae have been denied the people for too long by politicians (in favour of membership) have been frightened of losing.
The opinions are emerging today with personal and party opinions being aired.
There is no such thing as fact in politics. It is all opinions.

 

[Ferret]

With 27 member states, and with unelected and unaccountable EU officials making the rules, I suppose it depends on how much say you think we get now

Well, that's why the case for leaving is so persuasive for some. I expect it'll come down to the same scenario as the last general election - what's the lesser of two evils? I decided then that I wanted rid of Labour who even now I despise as a party because they forget that they should be the party of the working man - ie, me! But they aren't; they are too self-obsessed and power-hungry to form a legitimate Government in the national interest in their current form. They are worse than how I viewed the Tories in the early 2000s under Hague - untrustworthy and unelectable.

This EU vote (if we ever get it) will be the same - I don't really want the UK to leave the EU, but I don't see that things can carry on as they are with weaker economies dragging the Euro down (and other nations with it), not to mention the will of our own Parliament being irrelevant if Brussels or Strasbourg decide as much. What's the lesser of two evils?

 

[WestCoast]

With 27 member states, and with unelected and unaccountable EU officials making the rules, I suppose it depends on how much say you think we get now

Well, from reading international press it seems that some commentators argue that the UK does not exert as much influence on policy decisions as it could do. The UK is sometimes said to be more interested in 'opting-out' and 'getting powers back' rather than shaping policies at EU level.

Of course, the outcome of a referendum in five years time will largely depend on the situation at the time. Interestingly, while there is strong support for UKIP among the general public, the business community is still largely pro-EU. Tesco is just one example of a UK firm that has benefited from being able to trade without hindrance in new member states.

I was reading an interesting American perspective that the USA is allegedly quite keen on retaining the status quo in Europe. Obviously, it's not their decision but I wouldn't be surprised to see them realign their interests towards Germany and perhaps France if the UK stands alone.

 

[Barn]

The point is that Europe was one thing that we did have a referendum on - the only UK-wide one until the AV vote a few months ago. There was no referendum on various other big decisions (wars, welfare state, NHS, fox hunting etc), yet the UKIP side like to bring up the fact that we never had a referendum on Europe as if this makes it a somewhat unique thing (whereas the truth is that we don't tend to bother with referendums on anything, unlike the Swiss)

None of those things affect our constitution. Policies on the welfare state, the NHS, fox hunting, even wars, can be determined and redetermined at the ballot box. The key thing about Europe is that it actually affects the way in which our country is governed. We appoint MPs to take decisions for us during the time that they are in government (that is our 'representative democracy' way) but that's different to allowing politicians to make decisions that fundamentally change our constitution and the structure of our democracy. Politicians are custodians of democratic power; it is not theirs to permanently give away. That is why it has long been a constitutional convention that a parliament cannot bind future parliaments and, as Europe conflicts with that key principle, that's why it is important to canvass the view of the people.

 

[Johnuk123]

the business community is still largely pro-EU.

Of course big business is in favour, with mass uncontrolled immigration they have the pick of people who will work for peanuts.

Wage rate suppression has been fantastic for business.

The huge pressure on public services and housing caused by immigration does not concern them.

 

[WestCoast]

Of course big business is in favour, with mass uncontrolled immigration they have the pick of people who will work for peanuts.

Wage rate suppression has been fantastic for business.

The huge pressure on public services and housing caused by immigration does not concern them.

The previous Government had choices about immigration. They could have chosen to minimise immigration from outside the EU (if you exclude migrants from ROI this group vastly outnumbered EU migrants before the mid-2000s). In 2004, the UK was one of only three existing EU countries (others were Ireland and Sweden) that chose to give full work rights to citizens from successor states such as Poland and the Baltic countries. It was only last year when this became a requirement. They're facts.

However, immigration is a whole different debate here and one that could be discussed at great length.

 

[SS4]

Of course big business is in favour, with mass uncontrolled immigration they have the pick of people who will work for peanuts.

Wage rate suppression has been fantastic for business.

The huge pressure on public services and housing caused by immigration does not concern them.

Except big business in media who must make millions off the back of anti-EU propaganda yet people (not necessarily yourself) buy it hook, line and sinker.

========================================================================================

The EU will not (and should not) bend many of it's current policies to suit the UK. Cameron will not be able to negotiate anything, and cherry picking is understandably not an option (too many people here seem to think Brussels should grant us what we like because we threaten to leave similar to how a three year old throw tantrums)

If Britain leaves the EU, the results for Britain would be catastrophic, certainly in the short term. Trade would suffer as the EU exists as a largely self supporting, tariff free trading block, so Britain would have to pay taxes to trade. Why would multinational companies stay in Britain if they could be in the EU with the added bonus of not having to ship products by boat or rail or air? Fruit and veg comes from Southern Europe so tariffs would make those more expensive.

It'll be interesting to see what's happens to the Pound on the markets, will instability cause it to fall? Who knows?

The British working man would become infinitely worse off if Cameron's wishes come true, his ideology is to wreck the working time directive, the management of health and safety at work regs. and the workers rights, tribunals, representation by Unions etc., back to the Good Old Days of forced overtime, instant dismissals and dangerous, unsafe working conditions..

It does cost money to belong to the EU and, it does need reform, but, , Cameron is regarded as a joke in Brussels.

For my preference to stay in the EU 40% is no majority (still more than the Tories got power on though). All we can say is more people want in than want out.

tl;dr - this is not the 19th century. The British Empire is dead and Britain needs the EU far more than the EU needs Britain

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure many people would like a good relationship with Europe.

However, you only have to see the way in which many of our neighbours were brow beaten into a shambolic project like the single currency which was badly designed, poorly implemented and seen several of our neighbours brought to destitution for no better reason than hubris. I would suggest that it is this sort of thing that gets people up in arms over the EU, rather than the "evil press barons" who I doubt have as much influence over opinions as some like to imagine.

There are several countries which don't currently use the Euro, and yet have no opt out from joining the single currency. Will they be allowed to reconsider their position I wonder, or will their citizens end up being bullied into doing what they're told in the "do as Germany says" club.

I hope Cameron manages to sort something out, I really do, because no one wants a huge rift. However, having heard a former Belgian prime minister being interviewed on Radio four a few days ago managing to blame Britain for all the continents woes, and of course the only possible answer to everything in the world was closer integration, I can't help thinking that these people are impossible to reason with.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I enter into this debate with regard to a promised referendum by a British Prime Minister that was made less than ten years ago. In April 2004, the current Prime Minister, Tony Blair announced that a referendum would be held on the matter of the ratification of the EU constitution.

Can forum members well versed in political affairs reveal the answer as why this promised referendum was not then allowed to proceed.

 

[Chapeltom]

I welcome a referendum, I detest the state of the European Union for many reasons. It is frankly delusional to think that Britain gets a good deal, we put in more than we get out but that's not the only thing. Here are just two reasons why I dislike the current EU. Before I start that, im not anti European. I love Europe and a common market is something I'd support, but its frankly the EU at present is a monster, the beast needs to be tamed, it wants more money to waste.

The EU first and foremost benefits the political class. These people are not ordinary Europeans they are far removed from ordinary life and ordinary people. These people get very generous expenses, we think MPs are overpaid, look at what being a Commissioner or MEP gets you! Its a place where washed up politicians go to work, members of the Political elite in this country want to stay in EU, why? So they can themselves can get a job working in the EU earning ridiculous sums of money. You have a few commissioners accused of fraud, embezzlement etc. An MEP who admitted to have engaged in paedophilic acts, he's a co-President of the Greens group! Surely in the UK we'd have hung him out to dry had he been one of ours?

Then there is the money. We know the EU wastes billions of pounds, has thousands of vastly overpaid staff, is a bloated bureaucracy, the auditors refused to sign off the accounts for the 18th year running. This simply is not on, had this been a British company the fraud squad would have been in years ago and shut it down. Until the EU can account for all its spending, there is billions not millions going missing, I cannot in any way support it.

 

[Zoe]

why this promised referendum was not then allowed to proceed.

As I said above, it didn't proceed as the 2004 Treaty Establishing a Constitution for Europe was abandoned. Even states that did hold a referendum on this like France and the Netherlands didn't hold one on the 2007 Lisbon Treaty. The only state to hold a referendum was Ireland (I believe they were required to be their constitution) who at first voted against the Treaty but then in another referendum a year later voted for it.

It should also be noted that referenda have in this country not historically been used to ratify treaties. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty was ratified by John Major's Conservative government without a referndum, as did Ted Heath's Conservative government with the the 1972 Treaty of Accession. Harold Wilson's Labour government did later hold a referendum on if the UK should stay in or leave and the result of this was to stay in.

 

[SS4]

However, you only have to see the way in which many of our neighbours were brow beaten into a shambolic project like the single currency which was badly designed, poorly implemented and seen several of our neighbours brought to destitution for no better reason than hubris. I would suggest that it is this sort of thing that gets people up in arms over the EU, rather than the "evil press barons" who I doubt have as much influence over opinions as some like to imagine.
[/QUOTE

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find a pro-EU or even neutral story in the popular press.

Perhaps they don't have much influence over opinions but those who do are the opinions who matter. Why did Cameron all but ignore the Leveson report? But that's a whole new topic

 

[WestCoast]

To all those advocating withdrawing from the EU, what do you envision as the best future strategy for Britain's economic success? I rarely see this covered in a convincing depth, even though it's the most crucial issue here. Britain has a large population and a massive export/import ecomomy to support, we're not a 'niche player' like Switzerland, Iceland or Liechtenstein.

Where does leave the Common Market? If the UK remains in the EEA many if not most policies and legislation will still have to be adopted. The next level is a complete withdrawal from all European organisations and that would of course mean that the UK would have to enter into a relationship with the EU like Switzerland has (although it would be more dilluted then that). Residence and working rights for Britons living in the EU are not guaranteed and that could potentially affect a lot of people. If rights were revoked, I'd gladly apply for an Irish passport, but that's not an option for most.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone remember EFTA and its founding members of Britain, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and Norway. How did we manage then. I cannot recall Britain being constantly in financial difficulties in those days.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Since the EU seems wedded to the myth that "free trade" benefits anyone but the controlling oligarchs, I'll happily vote to leave.

 

[SS4]

To all those advocating withdrawing from the EU, what do you envision as the best future strategy for Britain's economic success? I rarely see this covered in a convincing depth, even though it's the most crucial issue here. Britain has a large population and a massive export/import ecomomy to support, we're not a 'niche player' like Switzerland, Iceland or Liechtenstein.

Where does leave the Common Market? If the UK remains in the EEA many if not most policies and legislation will still have to be adopted. The next level is a complete withdrawal from all European organisations and that would of course mean that the UK would have to enter into a relationship with the EU like Switzerland has (although it would be more dilluted then that). Residence and working rights for Britons living in the EU are not guaranteed and that could potentially affect a lot of people. If rights were revoked, I'd gladly apply for an Irish passport, but that's not an option for most.

That's a well reasoned post but you do know you're points will almost certainly be ignored.

Still think any talk of leaving the EU is moot because Cameron can see himself almost as doomed as Clegg and will say anything to win the next election. I wouldn't even put it past UKIP to do a heel-face turn when they saw the books.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....Still think any talk of leaving the EU is moot because Cameron can see himself almost as doomed as Clegg and will say anything to win the next election. ...

I do think you're buying the propaganda a bit easily on that one. For one thing, you are not considering the alternatives. Despite almost universal press support (for a variety of reasons), the current opposition has not approached revealing any hint of competence in any field, and it is difficult to see them doing so in the next couple of years.
Very few people actually want the UK to leave Europe, least of all Cameron. Sure, there are the gorillas of the right-leaning backwoods in the Tory Party - not really a significant group, but they make a lot of noise. Cameron's "pledge" has outflanked them, and that is why he made it - not to "do anything to win votes", as Europe is not a vote-winner. UKIP are also fairly insignificant, only gaining their profile (and "support") because of an unholy alliance of right wing press and left wing politicians pretending that "anything but Cameron" is a sensible political standpoint.
It is also in the interest of Germany and France to have the UK in Europe but dissatisfied. They know that the Euro experiment is doomed to failure on its current terms, but could never sanction the closeness of political unity that is required. Having the UK able and willing to veto any further moves in that direction stops them having to look over their personal abyss. Some of teh smaller countries outside the Euro are grateful for the UK standing up for their interests, so they can be seen to "toe the line".
But one thing is certain. There will be reform within the EU, because without it both the EU and the Euro become unworkable. I could see this reform actually being of benefit to the UK. So possibly your personal nightmare of a Centre-Right government in the UK might last a little longer than you expect.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/n...ack-obama-and-david-cameron-should-take-note/

Another one of those nasty papers making things up again.

What amazes me is that the figure is so low as everybody without a single exception that I know would leave tomorrow.

 

[yorksrob]

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find a pro-EU or even neutral story in the popular press.

Perhaps they don't have much influence over opinions but those who do are the opinions who matter. Why did Cameron all but ignore the Leveson report? But that's a whole new topic

I seem to recall that The Times was quite positive when the European Commission forced the mobile phone providers to lower intra-European call rates.

Of course, other daily publications are available ....:P