Cameras instead of mirrors

[renegademaster]

The new BYD-AD ev Enivros have cameras and screens rather than mirrors. I don't really like the idea, feel unreliable. They should at least have back up old fashioned mirrors , it's only like £100 on top of a £100k(?) bus

 

[GusB]

The new BYD-AD ev Enivros have cameras and screens rather than mirrors. I don't really like the idea, feel unreliable. They should at least have back up old fashioned mirrors , it's only like £100 on top of a £100k(?) bus

Do you drive buses on a regular basis? If so, please explain how they feel unreliable.

 

[renegademaster]

Do you drive buses on a regular basis? If so, please explain how they feel unreliable.

No, it's just my laymans gut feeling, and experiences with modern electronics . All my friends with post 2020 cars that seem to spend most of the time at the garage with electrical problems. Once I heard about someone's Tesla reversing cam dying

 

[GusB]

No, it's just my laymans gut feeling, and experiences with modern electronics . All my friends with post 2020 cars that seem to spend most of the time at the garage with electrical problems. Once I heard about someone's Tesla reversing cam dying

Let's put this one out to the people who actually drive buses and coaches for a living and see what they say about it.

 

[renegademaster]

Let's put this one out to the people who actually drive buses and coaches for a living and see what they say about it.

I'd be more than happy to hear bus drivers opinion it. Bet they are very useful tool , I'm just a bit of technophobe and adding some backup real mirrors doesn't seem like too much of an ordeal for Alexander Dennis

 

[dodecahedron67]

They’re lovely (camera mirrors). On all the buses I’ve driven that have them, they’ve had a wide angle lens as well as a regular one, which actually gives you a blindspot check.

Plus, passengers can’t smack their heads on them and often they have heating/cleaning mechanisms so they have better visibility than physical mirrors.

Just my opinion, but it seems to be the common one among drivers

 

[Flange Squeal]

I must admit I've only had a couple of drives with vehicles fitted with the system, but overall I like them. They take a bit of getting used to certainly, as the nearside camera screen is close to you where as with conventional mirrors the nearside positioning on on the corner of the bus naturally makes you look that way and do a manual look at anything that may be next to your door. However the camera views I found were good quality, offer a better coverage area than conventional mirrors, don't require as much constant wiping of rain and road dirt in poor weather, don't get walked into and knocked out of position by people at bus stops. On tight roads they're not going to be moved by any hedges when having to manoeuvre past other vehicles or require to be pulled in if you meet another large vehicle on a narrow stretch, and unlikely to be accidentally knocked on shelters or other street furniture if a driver misjudges their approach angle pulling up at a stop. Much the same as @dodecahedron67 really.

They can of course be looked at as something else to go wrong, but likewise it's not entirely uncommon for mirrors to get broken or even knocked off which also renders a bus out of service. I'm not aware of any real problems having cropped up with their reliability in my, admittedly limited so far, experience with them. That said, wiring/electrical faults are however an increasingly common cause of breakdown issues on mid-life Enviros and the like I drive, so we'll see how the systems fair in the long run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’re lovely (camera mirrors). On all the buses I’ve driven that have them, they’ve had a wide angle lens as well as a regular one, which actually gives you a blindspot check.

Plus, passengers can’t smack their heads on them and often they have heating/cleaning mechanisms so they have better visibility than physical mirrors.

Just my opinion, but it seems to be the common one among drivers

I've seen them on a premium car now too, I think it was some sort of BMW. I suspect all vehicles will get them in due course (indeed, I'm surprised cars with reversing cameras don't have them always-on in place of a rear view mirror given that that'd be so easy to do). Only thing I heard about the car ones I don't like is that they're just displayed on the centre console screen rather than, as per buses, mounted high up on the windscreen roughly where mirrors would usually be.

 

[renegademaster]

but likewise it's not entirely uncommon for mirrors to get broken or even knocked off

Tbf that's only a 5 minute fix you can do with hand tools, defective camera is probably a much bigger job

 

[jon0844]

I've seen them on a premium car now too, I think it was some sort of BMW. I suspect all vehicles will get them in due course (indeed, I'm surprised cars with reversing cameras don't have them always-on in place of a rear view mirror given that that'd be so easy to do). Only thing I heard about the car ones I don't like is that they're just displayed on the centre console screen rather than, as per buses, mounted high up on the windscreen roughly where mirrors would usually be.

A good quality camera and screen is quite expensive* and is another thing to go wrong on a car (which may well be maintained a lot less frequently than a bus) and the issue with the third-party ones you can buy for a car (rear view mirror) is that the brightness needs to be very high, which can generate heat and lead to failure of the backlight over time, and the camera must have a high dynamic range - so not some cheap image sensor and/or poor quality plastic lenses. The design also needs to allow for the camera to remain unobstructed by dirt, so maybe has a washer system or is positioned in such a way that the aerodynamics of the car keep it clear.

Some can switch from video to being a normal mirror, but I assume the cameras on a bus are going to be of a higher quality and hopefully modular so easily replaced if they fail?

* On a premium car, it might seem like a cool thing to one-up the neighbours and so prove popular.

 

[Swanny200]

A good quality camera and screen is quite expensive* and is another thing to go wrong on a car (which may well be maintained a lot less frequently than a bus) and the issue with the third-party ones you can buy for a car (rear view mirror) is that the brightness needs to be very high, which can generate heat and lead to failure of the backlight over time, and the camera must have a high dynamic range - so not some cheap image sensor and/or poor quality plastic lenses. The design also needs to allow for the camera to remain unobstructed by dirt, so maybe has a washer system or is positioned in such a way that the aerodynamics of the car keep it clear.

Some can switch from video to being a normal mirror, but I assume the cameras on a bus are going to be of a higher quality and hopefully modular so easily replaced if they fail?

* On a premium car, it might seem like a cool thing to one-up the neighbours and so prove popular.

I like the best of both worlds, on the new Hyundai and Kia premium (well their version of premium) the camera below the old fashioned mirror will turn into a blind spot camera, displaying the results on whichever side of the instrument panel you have indicated. I have found their cameras all round to be decent quality compared to even some of the premium models

 

[jon0844]

There are very good screens and cameras available now (just look at any high-end smartphone, or even many mid-range ones) but some cars have some absolutely awful, even in 2023, cameras and screens for things like reverse cameras. Thankfully, car makers appear to be investing in better tech and Mini has made a big deal of using OLED panels - which must look great. Of course, OLED at high brightness can have a relatively short lifespan and risk burn-in, so I have no idea if owners will be so happy after 5+ years...

What are the ones on the buses like? It's imperative that these work well and can't be blown out by bright lights or sun (indeed, a normal mirror could suffer more issues with like than a camera that can adjust the exposure level - but needing to do so very quickly).

 

[90019]

The camera mirrors I've experienced so far on buses and HGVs have all been a bit crap.

They have a few big issues, like LED headlights on other vehicles strobing on the screens and not being able to deal with having both light and dark areas on the screen at the same time meaning parts of the road could disappear into darkness on the screens.
On the BYD Enviros at Lothian the nearside side repeater was within the view of the cameras which caused the screens to pulse whenever the indicator was on in low light (I drove them a lot at night).
With a normal mirror, you can physically move in the seat to change what you can see in the mirror, but with cameras they're generally fixed so you can only see what it shows.

My biggest issue with them is that mirrors work both ways while cameras only work one way.
When I'm on the road, either at work or out in the car, there's situations where I'm looking at the mirrors of other vehicles, checking to see if they're using them and whether or not they've looked and seen me and obviously with cameras you can't do that.

They're a gimmick, and the sooner they go away the better, imo.

 

[scosutsut]

I think the problem no one is taking about is the homelessness problem camera mirrors create in the spider community

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the problem no one is taking about is the homelessness problem camera mirrors create in the spider community

Maybe they'll have to sleep elsewhere, but with them sticking out at 90 degrees to the vehicle I'm sure there'll still be a fresh web there every morning.

 

[Mwanesh]

Have just driven one in Walsall today. The cameras are fine. They are clear as day.

 

[richw]

I’ve only driven a single demonstrator bus with them. I honestly liked them much better than normal mirrors

 

[christopher]

When we first got them at my garage they failed a few times meaning having to go out with a stick on mirror to drive it back but they've settled down and hardly go wrong (apart from when they're smashed off). They're so much nicer from a driving point of view as well

 

[AB93]

Tbf that's only a 5 minute fix you can do with hand tools, defective camera is probably a much bigger job

That assumes it's only one bus losing its mirror - if it goes into the back of the bus in front, you've then got two buses out of service and often a £££'s repair bill for a new rear window.

 

[anthony263]

As a bus driver, I prefer the mirrors to cameras. I'll make a point of choosing an older vehicle over the newer ones because of this.

It's just my beliefs - I'm old school and having been so used to using mirrors, cameras just feel alien to me.

 

[farwest]

Interesting article here in great detail: https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-articles/134266/rear-view-cameras-montreal-stm/