Cambrian Line - Rotting Away?

[Envoy]

I was recently at Porthmadog station & noticed that several sleepers had rotted right through. It seems to me that many of our tracks in the outer reaches of the network have never been replaced since the days of steam. I find it incredible that here we are in 2015 & still the network has not been converted to long welded rail on concrete sleepers.

Just how much decay is allowed to set in before Network Rail take some action and do something about it?

 

[jimm]

I was recently at Porthmadog station & noticed that several sleepers had rotted right through. It seems to me that many of our tracks in the outer reaches of the network have never been replaced since the days of steam. I find it incredible that here we are in 2015 & still the network has not been converted to long welded rail on concrete sleepers.

Just how much decay is allowed to set in before Network Rail take some action and do something about it?

Why do you find it incredible?

Steel rails last for decades, especially in low-speed locations such as stations. So a few new sleepers are needed at Porthmadog, that's nothing new, as timber will inevitably deteriorate, but there is simply no justification, nor the money or engineering resources, for a massive track renewal programme on lightly-used rural routes where most trains are lightweight dmus with modern suspensions designed not to be too hard on the track.

if it still has life in it and maintenance costs are manageable, it's just not worth ripping up timber-sleepered track. But when rails reach the end of their life, they will be replaced, almost invariably with welded rail on concrete or steel sleepers - e.g. recent major renewals on the Skegness line, to take but one example.

 

[DarloRich]

I was recently at Porthmadog station & noticed that several sleepers had rotted right through. It seems to me that many of our tracks in the outer reaches of the network have never been replaced since the days of steam. I find it incredible that here we are in 2015 & still the network has not been converted to long welded rail on concrete sleepers.

Just how much decay is allowed to set in before Network Rail take some action and do something about it?

what on earth are you talking about? Not replaced since the age of steam :roll:

 

[Llanigraham]

The Cambrian is being gradually relaid.

 

[bolli]

what on earth are you talking about? Not replaced since the age of steam :roll:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Much of the Thames Valley relief lines were quite old, hence the massive pre-crossrail relaying effort.

 

[infobleep]

I was surprised earlier this year to see wooden sleepers at Worpolesden station. Clearly it's fine for them to be there or they wouldn't be as it's a mainline with four trains an hour.

I've also seen them at other stations on South West Trains lines.

Do they renew wooden sleepers with more wood?

How old can wooden sleepers be on a mainline?

 

[jimm]

what on earth are you talking about? Not replaced since the age of steam :roll:

Could well be right in the case of the rails. Track renewals at Moreton-in-Marsh station on the Cotswold Line two years ago saw bullhead rail dating back to 1956 replaced, while there is still some timber-sleepered, flat-bottom jointed rail of late 1950s or early 1960s vintage in use south of the town, which is passed for 90mph running.

I was surprised earlier this year to see wooden sleepers at Worpolesden station. Clearly it's fine for them to be there or they wouldn't be as it's a mainline with four trains an hour.

I've also seen them at other stations on South West Trains lines.

Do they renew wooden sleepers with more wood?

How old can wooden sleepers be on a mainline?

As long as the rails, sleepers, joints and ballast are properly looked after, it certainly is fine. If the odd sleeper is rotten or badly cracked, a new timber one will be slotted in.

Lifespan of sleepers depends on the type of wood - some tropical hardwoods will last for decades without needing any treatment with preservative - along with the punishment they take depending on line speeds and location.

 

[RPM]

Certainly things like chairs can last a long time. Some of the ones on the Princes Risborough - Aylesbury branch carry 1930s casting dates. It is possible some of the rail may be that old.

In terms of things like missing track fastenings and rotten sleepers, I understand there is a fair amount of redundancy in railway track, so a few odd defective items are not a problem.

 

[Bald Rick]

.

Do they renew wooden sleepers with more wood?

How old can wooden sleepers be on a mainline?

Sometimes timber sleepers are replaced by timber sleepers, indeed in some situations timber is the only option.

Wooden sleepers aren't replaced by age, but condition.

 

[infobleep]

Sometimes timber sleepers are replaced by timber sleepers, indeed in some situations timber is the only option.

Wooden sleepers aren't replaced by age, but condition.

Thanks. Interesting that what one might consider as old technology is still relevant in some situations.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I know this is way off topic so I apologize for that but there is a fair amount of jointed track just north of Ambergate on the Matlock branch and I doubt that any of that has been replaced in decades.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sometimes timber sleepers are replaced by timber sleepers, indeed in some situations timber is the only option. Wooden sleepers aren't replaced by age, but condition.

In Victorian times, one ideal wood for sleepers was that of Jarrah (Eucalyptus Marginata) that was imported from Australia. This hardwood has the advantages of a high density and interlocked grain.

 

[jimm]

In Victorian times, one ideal wood for sleepers was that of Jarrah (Eucalyptus Marginata) that was imported from Australia. This hardwood has the advantages of a high density and interlocked grain.

Still being used by Network Rail.

 

[DarloRich]

Could well be right in the case of the rails. Track renewals at Moreton-in-Marsh station on the Cotswold Line two years ago saw bullhead rail dating back to 1956 replaced, while there is still some timber-sleepered, flat-bottom jointed rail of late 1950s or early 1960s vintage in use south of the town, which is passed for 90mph running.

it is still inspected and maintained. The OP seemed to be suggesting the rails had just sat there since time immemorial

 

[Ash Bridge]

Lifespan of sleepers depends on the type of wood - some tropical hardwoods will last for decades without needing any treatment with preservative - along with the punishment they take depending on line speeds and location.

Although they haven't bore the weight of any trains for many decades these sleepers have formed part of the railway boundary fence at the bottom of our garden since ( Iam told ) at least the early 1940s, on the opposite side of the main one pictured there is what appears to be just discernible the wording "Down Slow" or similar in white paint, these must surely date back to LNWR days?

 

[QueensCurve]

I was recently at Porthmadog station & noticed that several sleepers had rotted right through. It seems to me that many of our tracks in the outer reaches of the network have never been replaced since the days of steam. I find it incredible that here we are in 2015 & still the network has not been converted to long welded rail on concrete sleepers.

Just how much decay is allowed to set in before Network Rail take some action and do something about it?

Lack of funding for modernisation? If you go to Switzerland, jointed rail is a thing of the past even on minor routes. Britain has governments that believe in the American "small state" thing and infrastructure investment suffers.

I recall some years ago there was a fuss made that the sleepers were rotten on the line from Trawfynydd to Blaenau Ffestiniog it being implied that it was not safe to run trains of used nuclear fuel on the route because of the rotten wood. It was not a valid point since the safety rests in the package being designed to contain the radioactive content in accident conditions and since presumably BR would have repaired the infrastructure if it wasn''t safe for trains to pass.

 

[aylesbury]

When I was able to volunteer on the Chinnor railway I noticed quite a few GWR chairs as I walked up and down the track quite a few sleepers were getting past it but the rail and chairs were ok.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I noticed some 1930s GWR chairs in bullhead track at Penrhyndeudraeth Station recently. Easily seen from the platform.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The coast line is a relatively low speed line and operated exclusively by the same type of DMU at a low frequency for last 14 years with a handful of exceptions. However the Cambrian mainline sees more services which run at higher speeds and is maintained to a higher standard.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Wooden sleepers can last a very long time. I believe there can be up to 2 defective sleepers in a row as long as there is at least 2 good ones each side and a limit each track length. Tie / gauge bars can be used as a temporary repair to keep the gauge.
There was a news-story/ complaint many years ago (BR) regarding Newton Abbot, and the amount of tie/ gauge bars in the track - The sleepers there were concrete.

 

[the-gog]

This thread is quite apposite, considering recent events. A week ago today, trains here were brought to a halt from 11:10 until around 15:00 when several broken chairs as well as the joint and several sleepers were discovered between Talerddig and Machynlleth. From what I've been able to ascertain from train movements, I have the feeling that this happened at Talerddig loop, but I don't have firm info.

On Tuesday, the same happened, though two miles east of Machynlleth in the vicinity of Penegoes. The driver of a train from Birmingham reported a track defect after passing over it in the afternoon. An inspection found 2 broken chairs, both fishplates off, and a problem with the joints. On both occasions, trains had to be stopped in order for the track to be repaired.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This thread is quite apposite, considering recent events. A week ago today, trains here were brought to a halt from 11:10 until around 15:00 when several broken chairs as well as the joint and several sleepers were discovered between Talerddig and Machynlleth. From what I've been able to ascertain from train movements, I have the feeling that this happened at Talerddig loop, but I don't have firm info.

On Tuesday, the same happened, though two miles east of Machynlleth in the vicinity of Penegoes. The driver of a train from Birmingham reported a track defect after passing over it in the afternoon. An inspection found 2 broken chairs, both fishplates off, and a problem with the joints. On both occasions, trains had to be stopped in order for the track to be repaired.

Talerdig loop was relaid (both sides) with steel sleepers and new track a few years ago.
My sources saying subsidence as a cause rather than lack of Maintainence of the track per se.

 

[Envoy]

This thread is quite apposite, considering recent events. A week ago today, trains here were brought to a halt from 11:10 until around 15:00 when several broken chairs as well as the joint and several sleepers were discovered between Talerddig and Machynlleth. From what I've been able to ascertain from train movements, I have the feeling that this happened at Talerddig loop, but I don't have firm info.

On Tuesday, the same happened, though two miles east of Machynlleth in the vicinity of Penegoes. The driver of a train from Birmingham reported a track defect after passing over it in the afternoon. An inspection found 2 broken chairs, both fishplates off, and a problem with the joints. On both occasions, trains had to be stopped in order for the track to be repaired.

Clearly, this ancient track should have been replaced with concrete sleepers and long welded rail years ago. Last summer I travelled the south Pembrokeshire line and that also is wooden sleepers and jointed track. Why do we have a third world railway in one of the richest countries in the World?

 

[30907]

And so the thread comes full circle.

 

[iantherev]

If you think the Cambrian's bad now, it's still not as dire as it was during the 'track maintenance holiday' of the 1980s when lengthy stretches were limited to 30mph because of track condition.

 

[jimm]

Clearly, this ancient track should have been replaced with concrete sleepers and long welded rail years ago. Last summer I travelled the south Pembrokeshire line and that also is wooden sleepers and jointed track. Why do we have a third world railway in one of the richest countries in the World?

Ancient? I wasn't aware that the Greeks or Romans were big railway builders...

And if all these miles of track that upset you so much should be replaced - never mind that Gareth says it was subsidence, not the actual track components that were the cause of the latest problems - where exactly is the money for your vast programme of track replacement going to come from, or the resources to carry it out? Please explain.

 

[the-gog]

Ancient? I wasn't aware that the Greeks or Romans were big railway builders...

And if all these miles of track that upset you so much should be replaced - never mind that Gareth says it was subsidence, not the actual track components that were the cause of the latest problems - where exactly is the money for your vast programme of track replacement going to come from, or the resources to carry it out? Please explain.

Isn't subsidence also a maintenance issue? Granted, it's been wet here, but not cataclysmically so.

 

[ac6000cw]

Clearly, this ancient track should have been replaced with concrete sleepers and long welded rail years ago. Last summer I travelled the south Pembrokeshire line and that also is wooden sleepers and jointed track. Why do we have a third world railway in one of the richest countries in the World?

Well, if you would like a comparison, another one of the 'richest countries of the world' (the USA) has a fair amount of jointed track on wooden sleepers carrying freight trains with up to 32 tonne axle loads (versus the 10 tonnes of a class 158 DMU). They also have in places long welded rail on wooden sleepers.

Wood has a natural resilience to absorb shock and vibration that reinforced concrete doesn't (it usually has to be provided by putting resilient pads between the rail and sleeper somewhere), so although wood can rot, concrete can crack under heavy traffic so concrete sleepers have a finite lifetime too. That is one of the main reasons why in the US they use both types of sleeper extensively - it just depends on the situation.

 

[jimm]

Isn't subsidence also a maintenance issue? Granted, it's been wet here, but not cataclysmically so.

Yes. And all this money Envoy seem to want to splurge on new rails and sleepers might actually be better spent on preventing trackbed subsidence, among a host of other things. Not that wet weather is the only cause of trackbed problems.

Commuters were left facing hours of delays after several trains had to be cancelled because a sett of badgers dug a crater underneath a railway track.
Rail users between Hereford and Worcester were left disrupted for over six hours after the foot-and-a-half hole was discovered in the track’s ballast - the gravel ground railway lines are laid on - at Colwall station in Herefordshire.
It left one sleeper train on the track perilously balanced on one side without any support - forcing services to be suspended.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dig-crater-railway-track-Colwall-station.html

 

[WestRiding]

Third-world railway!? Grow up.