Cambrian hourly service consultation

[Gareth Marston]

Will the line speed improvements between Manchester and Newton-le-Willows also allow a 175 to be released off-peak, by allowing the train which finishes one eastbound service to start the next one west, keeping the same times outside Manchester?

The Manchester- Warrington-Chester- North Wales services don't seem to have any firm resolution as to what will happen with them once the Northern Hub is complete, ATW have been trying to get hem to go to Manchester Airport for years for a slice of the ORCATs cake if nothing else. 158's have also been diverted to this route so that the peak AM arrival into Piccadilly can be 4 car.

Piccadilly is one location where in effect an ATW DMU sits all day long, Cardiff Canton is another as the Holyhead trains arrive/depart at same time and apart from some turns up to Maesteg the incoming units waits 2 hrs to return. Theirs a unit that runs a completely unnecessary and lightly loaded Llandudno to Cardiff Express as well

 

[transmanche]

Theirs a unit that runs a completely unnecessary and lightly loaded Llandudno to Cardiff Express as well

Except that it forms part of the hourly pattern Chester-Shrewsbury service. So perhaps yet another reminder is due; through services are not about end-to-end journeys.

Cancel that through service and you'd need to replace it with something else - so it's not as 'unnecessary' as you make out.

 

[Squaddie]

Theirs a unit that runs a completely unnecessary and lightly loaded Llandudno to Cardiff Express as well

Is that express really lightly-loaded?

I'd happily accept that not many passengers make the entire journey from north Wales to the capital, but what are loadings like for the various sectors of the line (Llandudno to Chester, Chester to Shrewsbury and along the Marches to Cardiff)?

 

[PHILIPE]

True it does but only because the normal one, a Holyhead to Birminghham Intl. goes via Crewe. When this Llandudno to Cardiff (formerly ex Holyhead) was introduced about 3 years ago it was introduced as a WAG2 via Wrexham and not a franchise service. Due to this the Holyhead to Birmingham had to be shoved out of the way to run via Crewe due pathing constraints.

 

[Gareth Marston]

True it does but only because the normal one, a Holyhead to Birminghham Intl. goes via Crewe. When this Llandudno to Cardiff (formerly ex Holyhead) was introduced about 3 years ago it was introduced as a WAG2 via Wrexham and not a franchise service. Due to this the Holyhead to Birmingham had to be shoved out of the way to run via Crewe due pathing constraints.

That's right the Holyhead to Birmingham service is rerouted via Crewe so that the Llandudno to Cardiff train can run via Wrexham. Theirs 6 other eastbound trains between Llandudno Junction and Chester between 0740 & 0940 so its not as though there would be a massive hole left by its loss. You can reroute the Birmingham via Wrexham which leaves south of Shrewsbury which it runs non stop to Newport so therefore serves no intermediate market. Its been repeatedly counted on departure from Shrewsbury and crew who work confirm it rarely loads anymore than 20 passengers most days. It truly is a superfluous working.

 

[transmanche]

Its been repeatedly counted on departure from Shrewsbury and crew who work confirm it rarely loads anymore than 20 passengers most days. It truly is a superfluous working.

So what you actually mean is that it's a superfluous working south of Shrewsbury, not that it's superfluous altogether.

 

[PHILIPE]

Superfluous throughout in view of the alternative services available.

 

[transmanche]

Superfluous throughout in view of the alternative services available.

Er no, see post #361.

 

[PHILIPE]

Er no, see post #361.

I don't think you get it. The normal service for this slot goes via Crewe because of this superfluous train in it's way.

 

[transmanche]

I don't think you get it. The normal service for this slot goes via Crewe because of this superfluous train in it's way.

No, you don't get it, as I clearly said if you cancelled it you'd need to replace it with something else. If something needs to be replaced, it cannot be 'superfluous'.

So the 'superfluous' bits are:

• The part of the Llandudno-Cardiff service south of Shrewsbury - allegedly only 20 people use it.
• The part of Holyhead-Birmingham service being diverted via Crewe between Chester and Shrewsbury - as this is duplicated by other services.

You'll still need to run the train from Llandudno to the junction (otherwise you'd be leaving a gap from 08:02 until 09:45. And what do you do with that unit then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Theirs 6 other eastbound trains between Llandudno Junction and Chester between 0740 & 0940 so its not as though there would be a massive hole left by its loss.

Llandudno Junction != Llandudno.

You can't justify removing a train by saying there are lots of trains running from a completely different station...

 

[Gareth Marston]

No, you don't get it, as I clearly said if you cancelled it you'd need to replace it with something else. If something needs to be replaced, it cannot be 'superfluous'.

So the 'superfluous' bits are:

• The part of the Llandudno-Cardiff service south of Shrewsbury - allegedly only 20 people use it.
• The part of Holyhead-Birmingham service being diverted via Crewe between Chester and Shrewsbury - as this is duplicated by other services.

You'll still need to run the train from Llandudno to the junction (otherwise you'd be leaving a gap from 08:02 until 09:45. And what do you do with that unit then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Llandudno Junction != Llandudno.

You can't justify removing a train by saying there are lots of trains running from a completely different station...

Transmarche - your clearly unaware of the "surgery" ATW have had to perform on their North Wales Coast services in order to accommodate this train.

The unit formerly was used for the 0845 Llandudno to Manchester service.
This still runs from Llandudno Junction @ 0854 by terminating the 0650 Manchester Piccadilly at the Junction instead of at Llandudno.
The following 0510 Cardiff Central to Holyhead was diverted to Llandudno.
The 0750 Manchester to Piccadilly was diverted to Holyhead instead of Llandudno.
The 0709 BHM INTL to Holyhead was diverted to Llanduno.
The 0850 from Manchester splits at Chester into a fast service to Holyhead and a stopper to Llandudno.
Its then mid morning before the service gets back on its SPT pattern. Thus having destroyed a number of the intermediate through journey flows you have in the past so staunchly defended such as Wrexham to Bangor. The first service from Cardiff to Bangor now arrives 20 minutes before midday.

If you put back the SPT services the Junction to Llandudno question is resolved.

 

[transmanche]

Transmarche - your clearly unaware of the "surgery" ATW have had to perform on their North Wales Coast services in order to accommodate this train.

[Snip an overly complex description.]

So back to the point at hand. Why did you describe the entire Llandudno-Cardiff service as 'superfluous' when you now agree that it's not. Being that you've confirmed that the Llandudno-Shrewsbury part would need to be replaced with other services to fill the slot. You agree it's merely the part south of Shrewsbury that fulfils your definition of 'superfluous'.

 

[Gareth Marston]

[Snip an overly complex description.]

So back to the point at hand. Why did you describe the entire Llandudno-Cardiff service as 'superfluous' when you now agree that it's not. Being that you've confirmed that the Llandudno-Shrewsbury part would need to be replaced with other services to fill the slot. You agree it's merely the part south of Shrewsbury that fulfils your definition of 'superfluous'.

The Llandudno to Llandudno Junction gap is easily solved by reverting to the previous pattern that was altered to accommodate this service.
You still don't understand or don't want to that this service runs at an already busy time of day when there are 2 tph between Bangor and Chester and 3 tph between Llandudno Junction and Chester.
The 0715 Holyhead to BHM INTL instead of running between Chester and Shrewsbury via Wrexham has been diverted via Crewe and regains its path at Shrewsbury to accommodate the Cardiff train running via Wrexham. Indeed many passengers transfer off the Cardiff express onto it instead of having a through journey into the Midlands from Gobowen, Wrexham etc. Putting this back into its previous slot still keeps 1tph between Chester and Shrewsbury, theirs still 2 tph between Chester and Crewe and 1 tph between Crewe and Shrewsbury plus the local stoppers whether this train runs this way or not.
Its not rocket science the pre existing pattern is easily restorable from Llandudno to Shrewsbury. The Llandudno to Cardiff express does not perform any indispensable local flow that wasn't already covered by the existing timetable.

The reason its so lightly loaded is that there has already been 3 other direct North Wales to Cardiff trains that leave North Wales before 0900, theres only so much demand especially as it arrives into Cardiff at lunchtime.

 

[transmanche]

[snip more equivocation]

I'll take that as a yes, then.

It's not that hard really. Rather than describe the entire Llandudno-Cardiff as 'superfluous'; wouldn't it have been much easier to say that it's not required south of Shrewsbury? - And that reverting to the previous pattern of services would (in your opinion) provide a better overall service. It would have saved so much time.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The biggest juggle is with the portion working between Mach and Dovey.

Do they have to join/split at a station? Could they do it on the single line just outside Dovey Junction where the two lines merge? Another thing I've wondered about in the past is what it'd be like if Dovey to Machynlleth was double-track, the coast unit running alongside the Aberystwyth unit.

I've been trying to come up with ideas about the suitability of stock on both Cambrian lines that the two hourly service to Pwllheli and Aberystwyth still runs, but it could work as an express service with class 158 stock, perhaps calling at Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws, Machynlleth, Dovey Junction, Aberdovey, Tywyn, Fairbourne, Barmouth, Dyffryn Ardudwy (?), Harlech, Penrhyndeudraeth, Porthmadog, Criccieth (?) and Pwllheli and then a one carriage 153 (once fitted with the right equipment) stopping service (retaining the request stops as they currently are) could operate from Machynlleth to Pwllheli once every 2 or 3 hours.

The idea that prompted me to ask whether the Cambrian Coast had the infrustructure for an hourly service was to retain the current Shrewsbury-Pwllheli service calling at all stops and add a limited stop service from Newtown to Bangor calling at Machynlleth, Dovey Junction, Aberdovey, Tywyn, Fairbourne (maybe), Barmouth, Harlech, Penrhyndeudraeth, Porthmadog, Penygroes, Llanwnda/Dinas, Caernarfon and Bangor. Obviously there's alot more to worry about than the capacity of the Machynlleth - Porthmadog section. This is a long-term, pretty pie-in-the-sky, kind of asperation (but a much better use of a HS2 Barnett consequential than more road or airport schemes in my opinion).

Politics? Welsh money spent in Wales?

A north-south rail service probably covers as much mileage outside Wales as much as a Manchester - Llandudno one does.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Do they have to join/split at a station? Could they do it on the single line just outside Dovey Junction where the two lines merge? Another thing I've wondered about in the past is what it'd be like if Dovey to Machynlleth was double-track, the coast unit running alongside the Aberystwyth unit.

The idea that prompted me to ask whether the Cambrian Coast had the infrustructure for an hourly service was to retain the current Shrewsbury-Pwllheli service calling at all stops and add a limited stop service from Newtown to Bangor calling at Machynlleth, Dovey Junction, Aberdovey, Tywyn, Fairbourne (maybe), Barmouth, Harlech, Penrhyndeudraeth, Porthmadog, Penygroes, Llanwnda/Dinas, Caernarfon and Bangor. Obviously there's alot more to worry about than the capacity of the Machynlleth - Porthmadog section. This is a long-term, pretty pie-in-the-sky, kind of asperation (but a much better use of a HS2 Barnett consequential than more road or airport schemes in my opinion).

A north-south rail service probably covers as much mileage outside Wales as much as a Manchester - Llandudno one does.

I don't think we have the necessary version of etcs where in theory a unit could tail chase another on the same line. Uncoupling mid section? We had to wait a few months before etcs was updated enough to allow the 0845 & 0925 arrivals at Aberystwyth to couple up to each other so program changes are possible in the software. However whereas previously a unit was detached at Barmouth off the 1st train from Machynlleth we know have two separate trains. It can't be an issue with the level crossing as the second unit still terminates in the platform after have crossed over the crossing before reversing.

Looking at old tt's the section south of Barmouth was predominantly local in nature apart from on a few summer Saturdays. A lot of services ran directly onto the line via Bala and the connection via Afonwen. The natural flow of journeys Is not predominantly southward but that's where the rail link was left. There very touchy on the coast about through trains a legacy of having successfully fought off closure attempts in the 70's. But as I've said before there hardly worth the effort on a weekday outside the holiday times.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Looking at old tt's the section south of Barmouth was predominantly local in nature apart from on a few summer Saturdays. A lot of services ran directly onto the line via Bala and the connection via Afonwen. The natural flow of journeys Is not predominantly southward but that's where the rail link was left. There very touchy on the coast about through trains a legacy of having successfully fought off closure attempts in the 70's. But as I've said before there hardly worth the effort on a weekday outside the holiday times.

My reasons for believing the through service from the Cambrian Coast to Shrewsbury/Birmingham should be retained are not really because I think the coast line needs the through service, but because:

1. The portion provides useful, in my opinion necessary, additional capacity between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury/Birmingham
2. The coast line is isolated from any other line of a similar nature so you need to use 158s on it regardless of whether they run through or not. Since a shuttle from Pwlhelli to Machynlleth would thus be a waste of 158s I figure you might as well make use of the fact they are 158s and provide a through service to Shrewsbury/Birmingham

The second one might be helped if you had the Porthmadog - Bangor link as then you could run an early morning Holyhead - Pwlhelli stopper (reversing at Bangor and Porthmadog) and the reverse in the late evening to cycle something like a 155 to/from Holyhead depot which would also supply units to the Conwy valley via a stopper to/from Llandudno. You'd still need to ensure Machynlleth/Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury/Birmingham was a 158/159 formation of 3 or more coaches though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Will the line speed improvements between Manchester and Newton-le-Willows also allow a 175 to be released off-peak, by allowing the train which finishes one eastbound service to start the next one west, keeping the same times outside Manchester?

I make the gain as 1.27 minutes one-way between Parkside and Patricroft.
(3 miles at 75 instead of 60 over the Moss, and 6 miles of 90 instead of 75 Parkside-Astley).
2.5 minutes improvement on a 175 turnround might not be enough (and would need appropriate paths).

 

[PHILIPE]

I'll take that as a yes, then.

It's not that hard really. Rather than describe the entire Llandudno-Cardiff as 'superfluous'; wouldn't it have been much easier to say that it's not required south of Shrewsbury? - And that reverting to the previous pattern of services would (in your opinion) provide a better overall service. It would have saved so much time.

When you askd me to refer to Post 361 you were only referring to between Chester and Shrewsbury which I answered but to which you decided to then change to Llandudno to Shrewsbury.
But this thread is about a Cambrian hourly service and not a North to South Wales topic.

 

[Squaddie]

But this thread is about a Cambrian hourly service and not a North to South Wales topic.

Every Welsh thread ends up being about North to South Wales services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

When you askd me to refer to Post 361 you were only referring to between Chester and Shrewsbury which I answered but to which you decided to then change to Llandudno to Shrewsbury.
But this thread is about a Cambrian hourly service and not a North to South Wales topic.

The relevance was identifying possible sources of DMU 's in ATW's fleet to allow a shuffle to free units for enhanced Cambrian services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My reasons for believing the through service from the Cambrian Coast to Shrewsbury/Birmingham should be retained are not really because I think the coast line needs the through service, but because:

1. The portion provides useful, in my opinion necessary, additional capacity between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury/Birmingham
2. The coast line is isolated from any other line of a similar nature so you need to use 158s on it regardless of whether they run through or not. Since a shuttle from Pwlhelli to Machynlleth would thus be a waste of 158s I figure you might as well make use of the fact they are 158s and provide a through service to Shrewsbury/Birmingham

The second one might be helped if you had the Porthmadog - Bangor link as then you could run an early morning Holyhead - Pwlhelli stopper (reversing at Bangor and Porthmadog) and the reverse in the late evening to cycle something like a 155 to/from Holyhead depot which would also supply units to the Conwy valley via a stopper to/from Llandudno. You'd still need to ensure Machynlleth/Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury/Birmingham was a 158/159 formation of 3 or more coaches though.

A self contained coast tt would need 3 diagrams, the current pattern is only unit short of allowing all Aberystwyth trains to be 4 car throughout if coast trains didn't run as portions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-25811690

Courier rail service call for Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth lineArriva Trains Wales carriage Steve Kaye has called for a carriage to be used for light haulage Continue reading the main story
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A courier service on a proposed hourly rail service between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth could boost trade in mid Wales, a local business leader says.

Steve Kaye, chair of Powys Federation of Small Businesses (PFSB), says trains could carry parcels between towns along the Cambrian routes.

In November Transport Minister Edwina Hart created a group to consider improvements to the mid Wales network.

It will submit its report to the minister on 1 February.

Mr Kaye said the courier service would aid businesses once the hourly service was up and running.

Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
Small businesses will miss out on a number of opportunities if we don't get the hourly service”
End Quote
Steve Kaye

Powys Federation of Small Businesses

"One carriage could be partly used for luggage because students travelling to and from Aberystwyth University at times have to pile their belongings in the doorway," said Mr Kaye.

"This carriage could also be used to carry parcels between companies based along the Cambrian and coastal lines.

"That would mean that for a small fee a company can transfer goods to another branch or another business within the hour, which would be a huge boost for small businesses based near to the railway line."

But Mr Kaye added that the priority at the moment was to secure the hourly service.

"Small businesses will miss out on a number of opportunities if we don't get the hourly service," he said.

"That service would make it easier for people to commute to work which should increase the number of people living in mid Wales which, in turn, would increase business in the area."

'Coming together'
Robert Robinson, joint secretary of the group looking at improvements on the network, said it had asked Arriva Trains to submit costings and a timetable for the proposed hourly route.

He added: "We have also received input from a number of interested parties including businesses and Aberystwyth University, and the jigsaw is coming together which will enable us to finish the report by the end of January."

Mr Robinson said the report would not include any submissions that did not concentrate on the commuter service.

The review group was set up by the minister after a report by the Shrewsbury Aberystwyth Railway Liaison Committee said hourly services through mid Wales could boost employment and tourism.

The report, which included 6,570 responses by residents, students and businesses in mid Wales, also called for more trains on the coast line between Machynlleth and Pwllheli in the summer months.

 

[merlodlliw]

A Cambrian courier service carriage,that's an interesting idea,thoughts of Red Star come to mind.

 

[berneyarms]

Given the location of the passing loop at Dovey Junction and the length of the mainline platform, will it be possible for trains crossing there on the mainline to both call at the station when the hourly service comes in?

This would greatly enhance connectivity, given that passengers wanting to travel between the coast line and stations to Aberystwyth or stations to Shrewsbury would be able to do so with a quick changeover at Dovey Junction, and no longer having to travel to Machynlleth and waiting for up to an hour as at present (if travelling to/from Aberystwyth).

 

[The Planner]

Yes, the loop works so the up train arrives first at the Mach end and the down train passes it and uses the other end of the platform.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, the loop works so the up train arrives first at the Mach end and the down train passes it and uses the other end of the platform.

Its sat there rusting for 3 years without anything doing it though- not that i'm miffed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the location of the passing loop at Dovey Junction and the length of the mainline platform, will it be possible for trains crossing there on the mainline to both call at the station when the hourly service comes in?

This would greatly enhance connectivity, given that passengers wanting to travel between the coast line and stations to Aberystwyth or stations to Shrewsbury would be able to do so with a quick changeover at Dovey Junction, and no longer having to travel to Machynlleth and waiting for up to an hour as at present (if travelling to/from Aberystwyth).

The coast - Aber market is seriously untapped as trains haven't connected for 20 years. Aber is the closest place with any sort of higher facilities/ employment prosepcts for a lot of communities up the coast they are forced into driving inland to Machynlleth and using a bridge built for packhorses to cross the Dyfi river.

 

[berneyarms]

Yes, the loop works so the up train arrives first at the Mach end and the down train passes it and uses the other end of the platform.

Gosh - some common sense infrastructure planning - that makes a change.

What's the thinking on the coast line service going forward?

Would the current service pattern be maintained, meaning the connections at Dovey would be alternate hours depending on direction of travel, or do you think that the trains will make a swift turnaround there and (presuming the two hour frequency is maintained) have a much longer layover at Pwllheli?

If the former were the case, presumably on the alternate hour the loop can work so the down train can use the Mach end and the up call at the far end before using the loop?

That would minimise walking distances for the majority of people changing.

 

[OxtedL]

If the former were the case, presumably on the alternate hour the loop can work so the down train can use the Mach end and the up call at the far end before using the loop?

Assuming the tracks in the loop are bidirectional, which I believe they are, this ought to be theoretically possible (unless there's something going on with overlaps or similar), but wouldn't normally happen as the trains cannot be signalled 'through' the platforms and have to approach (head-on) at a much slower speed for safety. It's also more sensitive to delays to the up train, although that's somewhat inevitable on a single track.

The arrangement as The Planner describes it (and as also occurs at Penryn, I think) allows the first train to arrive from Aberystwyth at a decent speed, clearing the single line so the second train from Mach can then be signalled straight through to it at a decent speed, and both trains can depart as promptly as possible.

 

[The Planner]

Don't think it is an allowed move to go head on like that, It is definitely more restrictive to go into the down loop in the up direction before a down train uses the platform.

 

[30907]

What's the thinking on the coast line service going forward?

Would the current service pattern be maintained, meaning the connections at Dovey would be alternate hours depending on direction of travel, or do you think that the trains will make a swift turnaround there and (presuming the two hour frequency is maintained) have a much longer layover at Pwllheli?

My guess is that the present pattern, crossing at Harlech and Tywyn, will need to be maintained because of the Harlech schools traffic.
This would also keep alive the possibility of trains splitting at Mach - but that would only work if Talerddig-Dyfi Jn could be done quickly enough.

 

[The Planner]

Dovey has always been frowned upon as a changing point due to the lack of facilities (though if a coast train is sat there waiting then it provides light, heat and toilets). It may still come to that though.