Calmac / Northlink Ferry discussion

[Russel]

This is a novel incident... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g6nd3x0ppo has:

Let's hope they throw the book at him...

 

[WolvertonWorks]

Indeed, I've noticed Calmac can take quite a beating in the news and on social media, but although I'm only an infrequent traveller, I've always found them to be excellent.

We did rail and sail from Glasgow to Rothesay on the isle of Bute, and back, on Saturday and the ferry ride was good.

The guy in the ticket office at Glasgow central had to swop machines as the one he was using had been upgraded and couldn't sell rail and sail tickets so he had to use the non-upgraded machine. He said he didn't know what they were going to do when people came and asked for a ticket and they couldn't sell them once both machines were updated. He said he'd told management many times about the problem.

When we'd arranged to be in Glasgow over the weekend with the intention of doing the ferry trip we hadn't realised that it was the Bute Highland Games on Saturday. By the time we'd alighted at Wemyss Bay and exchanged our coupons for ferry tickets and joined the queue for the ferry it turned out we were about ten passengers too late as we, they and those behind us in the queue couldn't get on the ferry and had to wait for the next one the route was so popular.

We made sure we were back at the ferry terminal in good time for the return journey!

I'd recommend doing the trip.

 

[Cloud Strife]

How simple and robust could an electric version be? That would side-step the nightmare of modern emission-compliant diesel engines!

To be honest, there's absolutely no reason to use anything other than electric on short routes now. In Denmark, Molslinjen launched Nerthus in 2025, and she can carry up to 188 cars and 600 passengers on an 80 minute route without problems. The only issue can be access to power, as CalMac's operating model is to deploy ships where needed as opposed to using them only on one or two routes. But again, this is something that CMAL should be addressing now, even if the ferries haven't been bought yet.

Electric ferries are also far less complicated to run, so it's really a no brainer where it's possible.

 

[Russel]

To be honest, there's absolutely no reason to use anything other than electric on short routes now. In Denmark, Molslinjen launched Nerthus in 2025, and she can carry up to 188 cars and 600 passengers on an 80 minute route without problems. The only issue can be access to power, as CalMac's operating model is to deploy ships where needed as opposed to using them only on one or two routes. But again, this is something that CMAL should be addressing now, even if the ferries haven't been bought yet.

Electric ferries are also far less complicated to run, so it's really a no brainer where it's possible.

Ignoring the green/climate aspect for a second, what are the long term economic position of electric ferries over traditional diesel, taking into account the additional initial outlay for the ferry and charging infrastructure?

 

[AndrewE]

Ignoring the green/climate aspect for a second, what are the long term economic position of electric ferries over traditional diesel, taking into account the additional initial outlay for the ferry and charging infrastructure?

I imagine it depends entirely on how the domestic energy market is rigged arranged... and whether the electric ferry is actually any more expensive than a diesel one anyway?

Currently my domestic gas is 7.25p/kWh, my Octopus Flux "cheap rate" - at 2 a.m. - is 16.1! I don't know how red diesel compares with either of those. On top of that a) they might have a wholesale price agreed with the local DNO or some nearby generator, and b) if a battery was charged up gradually at each end and dumped into the ferry when it docks there might be no need for any grid upgrade anyway.

I would imagine that the simplicity of a battery-electric ferry would pay ongoing dividends long into the future (compared with the maintenance and refurbishment of ICEs) and the charging infrastructure would just be paid off over time. The other thing is that CalMac is publicly-owned and the [Scottish] Government's decarbonisation objectives could easily justify that initial outlay.

 

[EYFanatic]

You also have to worry about electric companies going bankrupt and, therefore, not being able to source parts or whole units (see the Class 230 programme) whereas with diesel engines, parts are widely available even if some are custom made on occasion

 

[AndrewE]

You also have to worry about electric companies going bankrupt and, therefore, not being able to source parts or whole units (see the Class 230 programme) whereas with diesel engines, parts are widely available even if some are custom made on occasion

I don't think so... "electric companies" are numerous and widespread, and I guess properly-specified and sourced motors and even the hardware and software to drive them is also easily available and not too difficult to replace, almost certainly easier than bespoke ICE components.

I would talk to the people who did this https://www.worldports.org/oresundslinjen-is-now-converting-a-third-ferry-to-electric-power/ (Øresundslinjen is now converting a third ferry to electric power) in 2025. Converting a third vessel suggests that they are happy with the first two, which they started converting in 2018

 

[EYFanatic]

I don't think so... "electric companies" are numerous and widespread, and I guess properly-specified and sourced motors and even the hardware and software to drive them is also easily available and not too difficult to replace, almost certainly easier than bespoke ICE components.

Yes, I agree... But if you get something very specialised as has happened in the past, then that sole firm going bankrupt makes things very difficult for you

I know of at least three projects to convert diesel boats to electric power - one of which had to be halted midway through due to the firm going bankrupt and to settle things with the new owners to all the rights and parts... I am sure it was one of the POL LINE boats, but I'd have to leaf through back copies of my shipping magazine to be sure

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ignoring the green/climate aspect for a second, what are the long term economic position of electric ferries over traditional diesel, taking into account the additional initial outlay for the ferry and charging infrastructure?

In Scotland, probably very good. One thing Scotland is not short of is cheap electricity from all those hydro-electric power stations.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Ignoring the green/climate aspect for a second, what are the long term economic position of electric ferries over traditional diesel, taking into account the additional initial outlay for the ferry and charging infrastructure?

Generally speaking, electric ferries are somewhere between 15-20% cheaper (some sources suggest 30%!) in terms of "fuel" costs, while being around 80% cheaper in terms of ongoing maintenance. In terms of the initial purchase price, they're roughly around 50% more expensive. So, in the long term, they're significantly better than traditional diesel ferries, at least where renewable energy is abundant.

The problem is as mentioned above: the vendor lock-in.

 

[AndrewE]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn74g1k6yxyo

Project costs for the construction of new CalMac ferries being built in Turkey have risen by £20m as new delays are confirmed.

State-owned ferries agency CMAL said MV Loch Indaal, the second of the four ships being built by the Cemre shipyard, is now expected to be delivered in October, about 20 months later than originally planned.
The third and fourth ships, MV Lochmor and MV Claymore, earmarked to serve the Western Isles, are now both due to be delivered in the first half of 2027.

CMAL announced in June that it had paid in full for the uncompleted ships to help the Turkish shipyard, which was facing financial challenges.
So far, only one of the four ships ordered from Cemre in 2022 and 2023 - MV Isle of Islay - has been delivered.

Oh dear, but at least they have got their hands on one ship!

 

[Bald Rick]

In Scotland, probably very good. One thing Scotland is not short of is cheap electricity from all those hydro-electric power stations.

Pedantically, Scotland has rather more cheap electricity from windfarms. 10x more wind capacity than hydropower, producing about 15 x more electricity over the past year. And that doesn’t allow for wind being routinely curtailed, where Hydro rarely is (as it can be ‘stored’ for future use).

 

[AndrewE]

It is history now, but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1mv50enz09o makes you wonder if using LNG was a mistake (just "too difficult"!)

Valve failure on CalMac ferry saw uncontrolled escape of flammable gas​

A faulty valve on a CalMac ferry led to a sudden and uncontrolled release of highly flammable methane gas last summer, BBC Scotland News has learned.

The operator's investigation found that 700kg of the gas - enough to fill a four-bedroomed house - was vented from the side of MV Glen Sannox over the space of 12 minutes while it was carrying 82 passengers from Arran to the mainland.

So much methane was released that some of it was sucked into a ventilation intake, setting off gas alarms in the ship's generator room.

While the risk of explosion is believed to have been low, CalMac described it as a "critical failure" in the gas fuel system and said lessons had been learned.
...
Since it happened, CalMac has not run the ship's main engines on LNG, and the methane tank was completely emptied last November.

 

[Russel]

It is history now, but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1mv50enz09o makes you wonder if using LNG was a mistake (just "too difficult"!)

Make me wonder if the MV Glen Sannox was a mistake all together, when you consider everything else that has gone wrong with it right from the day the order was placed.

 

[EYFanatic]

It is history now, but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1mv50enz09o makes you wonder if using LNG was a mistake (just "too difficult"!)

If she was running at speed, a 12 minute fart (which is what methane is) is damn impressive and must have covered some distance