Calmac / Northlink Ferry discussion

[JohnMcL7]

I suspect that there is more to this story than meets the eye. It seems entirely implausible that they would leave Glen Sannox tied up in summer given the demand on the Arran route, unless there is something seriously wrong, either with her or with the other major vessels going to the Western Isles. Either way, this needs to be explained properly, as I cannot comprehend leaving her tied up while other much older vessels are continuing to sail. If anything, she should be operating one of the Oban routes!

After a trip out to Lewis and seeing the ship parked up there doing nothing I was wondering what was going on with it, is this choice due to a lack of confidence in the reliability of the Glen Sannox?

On a different note, I had my first trip on the mezzanine deck. Every trip so far I've always ended up somewhere in the middle and when I asked on a CalMac group I was told they tend to try to get shorter cars on the mezzanine deck (my car is a fairly long estate), then the bigger camper vehicles and vans then whatever is left.

 

[Strathclyder]

One such article on BBC News:

Ferries agency pays in full for unfinished CalMac ships built in Turkey

CMAL has taken legal ownership of three ships as the shipyard faces economic challenges.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Pinches bridge of nose and takes a deep breath'

At least CMAL did this is a precautionary measure and to ringfence them should the worst happen, but if it does (and I really hope it doesn't), it'll ultimately be us, the Scottish taxpayer, that will have to pick up the tab for the additional costs of sending them to another shipyard to get the work done.

This doesn't look good. CMAL doing this means there's a real risk of something going wrong with the shipbuilding process, and while I guess Ferguson could probably finish them if needs be, it would be a massive scandal if the shipyard goes bankrupt before delivery. It also means that any warranty is pretty much worthless at this point, although some money will be kept in escrow to cover repairs in the short term.

If such a scenerio were to come to pass, I wouldn't (or should I say shouldn't?) trust Ferguson's to even complete them within a reasonable timeframe or without serious build quality/overall quality control issues, given their utterly woeful track record in both respects in the last decade. A 15 month late delivery would be considered 'on time and on target' as far as they're concerned. I'd be amazed if they ever get another ROPAX order with a conventional fuel system, so thoroughly has their reputation been shredded by this.

(Of course, all this is assuming that CMAL wouldn't just send them to a shipyard somewhere else on the continent and dodge that particular bullet)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

'Pinches bridge of nose and takes a deep breath'

At least CMAL did this is a precationary measure and to ringfence them should the worst happen, but if it does (and I really hope it doesn't), it'll ultimately be us, the Scottish taxpayer, that will have to pick up the tab for the additional costs of sending them to another shipyard to get the work done.


If such a scenerio were to come to pass, I wouldn't (or should I say shouldn't?) trust Ferguson's to even complete them within a reasonable timeframe or without serious build quality/overall quality control issues, given their utterly woeful track record in both respects in the last decade. A 15 month late delivery would be considered 'on time and on target' as far as they're concerned.

(Of course, all this is assuming that CMAL wouldn't just send them to a shipyard somewhere else on the continent and dodge that particular bullet)

CMAL not having much luck with ferry procurement maybe going to cheap this time.

 

[dgl]

There's surely plenty of ship builders around the world that have a proven track history and the finances that issues like CMAL are experiencing wouldn't happen. I guess it all comes down to cost in the end l, then again the extra costs associated when a shipbuilder does go bust must swallow any cost savings.

 

[AndrewE]

(Of course, all this is assuming that CMAL wouldn't just send them to a shipyard somewhere else on the continent and dodge that particular bullet)

A certain country with a shipbuilding heritage not far away from Turkey and en route to the UK might not be a wise choice, given the politics of both countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skaramangas_Shipyards was interesting for a different reason:

A special branch has also been created since 1986, for the mass production of various types of railcars (diesel and electric) and railroad cars (passenger and freight), mostly on German designs.[3]

with a picture of DMUs being built under license from MAN in 1991!
Italy might be a better bet...

 

[Strathclyder]

A certain country with a shipbuilding heritage not far away from Turkey and en route to the UK might not be a wise choice, given the politics of both countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skaramangas_Shipyards was interesting for a different reason:

with a picture of DMUs being built under license from MAN in 1991!
Italy might be a better bet...

I was thinking of Italy, Germany or Poland as potential future choices as Loch Seaforth & Finlaggan were respectively built in the latter pair of countries. While both of those have had issues, they were comparatively minor compared to those of Glen Sannox/Rosa, the next large ferry orders CMAL placed after Seaforth.

 

[Arriva Fan]

I was thinking of Italy, Germany or Poland as potential future choices as Loch Seaforth & Finlaggan were respectively built in the latter pair of countries. While both of those have had issues, they were comparatively minor compared to those of Glen Sannox/Rosa, the next large ferry orders CMAL placed after Seaforth.

But FSG got into difficulties building Honfleur for Brittany Ferries & Hull 777 for ICG. I don't think they are prepared to build ROPAX now.

Remontowa, who have the Small Vessels Order, look like the safest bet for CMAL.

 

[Strathclyder]

But FSG got into difficulties building Honfleur for Brittany Ferries & Hull 777 for ICG. I don't think they are prepared to build ROPAX now.

Remontowa, who have the Small Vessels Order, look like the safest bet for CMAL.

I am aware of those two vessels also having suffered their issues during construction, but they're honestly nothing compared to Ferguson's cascading series of delays and cost overruns with Sannox & Rosa, and most of it is thanks to abject incompetence, constant political interference and gross mismanagement of the project at every level. Nothing to do with the long-suffering workforce caught in the middle of it all down there.

As a brief refresh of just how much this has spiraled, they were ordered over a decade ago, were/are over 5 years behind their intitally planned service entry date and are now 4 times over the initial budget (from £97m to £460m*, and that's if the final cost doesn't climb further still). Yes, COVID did nothing to help, but things were going off the rails long before that was even a blip on our collective radars.

I was merely postulating that hypothetically and if they were willing and able to commit to a new ROPAX build, FSG would be a better option even with their own recent issues as they have a proven track record. But if not them, and if Remontowa were willing and able to commit to another such CMAL build after the Small Vessels Order is complete, I'd go with them as well as they overall seem like the safest bet.

Regardless of my speculation and spleen venting, it's just a matter of waiting and seeing who CMAL will choose for their next ROPAX order. If it were up to me, it would have to meet these criteria: it has to be a yard not in or adjecent to a particularly volatile region of the world and thus particularly susceptible to any major upheavals/disruptions (this is where CMAL have come unstuck with Cemre), it has to be a yard who has experience with such builds and, lastly, it has to be a yard that's not one delayed/problematic build away from going to the wall and requiring government intervention.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's surely plenty of ship builders around the world that have a proven track history and the finances that issues like CMAL are experiencing wouldn't happen.

Most shipbuilders tread a fine line financially these days and one problematic build can tip them into bankruptcy.
As others have said, FSG had a long track record of successful ship building and had built Loch Seaforth on time and to budget. But FSG were a year late delivering the WB Yeats to Irish Ferries. They delays meant they lost money on the construction of that ship and that, in turn, meant they went bust before the Honfleur was finished. FSG then went bust again in 2024.

I feel sorry for CMAL, they just can't catch a break.

 

[Arriva Fan]

Most shipbuilders tread a fine line financially these days and one problematic build can tip them into bankruptcy.
As others have said, FSG had a long track record of successful ship building and had built Loch Seaforth on time and to budget. But FSG were a year late delivering the WB Yeats to Irish Ferries. They delays meant they lost money on the construction of that ship and that, in turn, meant they went bust before the Honfleur was finished. FSG then went bust again in 2024.

I feel sorry for CMAL, they just can't catch a break.

I don't think FSG would tender for ROPAX. I think after that failed attempt to break ROPAX Market, they've bailed on it.

China for a CalMacFlexer Series would make sense. The new NorthLink Vessels will be Chinese.

 

[AndrewE]

more [bad] news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg8ljvllleo

CalMac's newest ship - the Turkish-built MV Isle of Islay - is to be withdrawn from service for repairs later this month, just 15 weeks after carrying its first passengers.

The roll-on roll-off ferry entered service on 31 March, but six weeks later a hinge problem with its bow doors meant it has had to operate "single ended" ever since.

The issue is understood to be the only "big ticket" item out of about 150 lesser problems that CalMac wants to be fixed under warranty.

Separately, Scotland's state-owned ferries body is trying to establish if three other CalMac ships being built at the Cemre shipyard will be further delayed because the firm is facing economic challenges.

The second ship in the order, MV Loch Indaal, was due about now, nearly 18 months later than the contracted delivery date, but Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd (CMAL) could only confirm that the ship is still expected this year.

 

[Southsider]

Don’t have any more details but Glen Sannox is being withdrawn from service for more repairs.

 

[route101]

Was in Tarbert last weekend and was hoping to travel to Portvadie but all sailings were cancelled for the day as the vessel was needed elsewhere.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Don’t have any more details but Glen Sannox is being withdrawn from service for more repairs.

This gives some more detail https://www.hebrides-news.com/glen-sannox-substitute-uist-harris-service-826.html suggesting its being moved to a differrent route following repairs as another vessell has issues after re-engining.

MV Glen Sannox is needed to resume service in the Western Isles next week following a week outage for essential maintenance.

No ferry is available for at least three weeks to operate the busy Sound of Harris inter-island link after Monday.

CalMac has closed its booking system for new reservations for the period and is transferring pre-booked vehicles and passengers onto the Sannox or a different route.

Excess vibration continue to trouble regular vessel MV Lord Portain which has been sent to the Clyde area for investigations and tests leading to - it is hoped - a resolution at some future date.

Four new Volvo Penta engines units were installed on the Portain in May. However, issues emerged on her vessel’s return to service.

 

[Russel]

I was up in Glasgow over the last few days and read on social media that the MV Isle Of Cumbrae was temporarily back on her original route, so I managed to squeeze in a trip to Largs to do a return crossing on her, 50 years old and still going strong!

MV Isle Of Cumbrae by Adam P, on Flickr

MV Isle Of Cumbrae by Adam P, on Flickr

MV Isle Of Cumbrae by Adam P, on Flickr

 

[Transilien]

I was up in Glasgow over the last few days and read on social media that the MV Isle Of Cumbrae was temporarily back on her original route, so I managed to squeeze in a trip to Largs to do a return crossing on her, 50 years old and still going strong!

MV Isle Of Cumbrae by Adam P, on Flickr

MV Isle Of Cumbrae by Adam P, on Flickr

MV Isle Of Cumbrae by Adam P, on Flickr

It is funny to see the oldest vessel in the fleet still going on without issues and no replacement for at least the next few years, while so much of the other CalMac fleet is falling apart.

 

[Russel]

It is funny to see the oldest vessel in the fleet still going on without issues and no replacement for at least the next few years, while so much of the other CalMac fleet is falling apart.

She was certainly built to last!

I thought the Loch Tarbert was supposed to be the second Cumbrae vessel so I'm guessing that's another broken ferry to add to the collection?

Not seen the Loch Tarbert since she was on the Lochranza service 10 years ago.

 

[Elwyn]

It is funny to see the oldest vessel in the fleet still going on without issues and no replacement for at least the next few years, while so much of the other CalMac fleet is falling apart.

The Romans built aqueducts that are still in use today whilst we demolish 1960s tower blocks because they are no longer habitable.

 

[AndrewE]

It is funny to see the oldest vessel in the fleet still going on without issues and no replacement for at least the next few years, while so much of the other CalMac fleet is falling apart.

Any chance they could order another 2 or 3 identical? Minimal fancy bits to go wrong and low technology wherever it is allowed might make for a successful design... Maybe Ferguson's could even make one that worked?

 

[mpthomson]

Any chance they could order another 2 or 3 identical? Minimal fancy bits to go wrong and low technology wherever it is allowed might make for a successful design... Maybe Ferguson's could even make one that worked?

I suspect the engines wouldn't meet modern emissions standards, so aren't available now.

 

[Russel]

Any chance they could order another 2 or 3 identical? Minimal fancy bits to go wrong and low technology wherever it is allowed might make for a successful design... Maybe Ferguson's could even make one that worked?

It just back up the point that the more complicated you make something, the more there is to go wrong, doesn't it?

 

[AndrewE]

I suspect the engines wouldn't meet modern emissions standards, so aren't available now.

That would be one thing that would have to change, but I imagine there must be a combination of robust engines and good maintenance and engineer training which would be reliable?
Cumbrae's navigation stuff must be up-to-date, I wonder how simple the steering gear is?

 

[thejuggler]

It is funny to see the oldest vessel in the fleet still going on without issues and no replacement for at least the next few years, while so much of the other CalMac fleet is falling apart.

Cumbrae is a far simpler vessel than the larger long distance ferries. Upgrades will be far easier.

 

[AndrewE]

Cumbrae is a far simpler vessel than the larger long distance ferries. Upgrades will be far easier.

but weren't there problems with the Corran ferry meaning no service a while ago? I imagine that could be an equally basic vessel, how many such short crossings are there?

p.s. I see that there is a webcam for the queues at both ends of the Corran Ferry, and you can see the ferry come and go at the Ardgour end... https://www.highland.gov.uk/corran-ferry
Nice, but not quite Dawlish!

 

[Russel]

Cumbrae is a far simpler vessel than the larger long distance ferries. Upgrades will be far easier.

But look at the MV Isle Of Arran that is of similar vintage, she just keep going while much newer vessels don't.

 

[mpthomson]

That would be one thing that would have to change, but I imagine there must be a combination of robust engines and good maintenance and engineer training which would be reliable?
Cumbrae's navigation stuff must be up-to-date, I wonder how simple the steering gear is?

Modern engines that meet the emissions stadard are far more complex electronically and I suspect it wouldn't be as simple a conversion as anyone would hope for

 

[AndrewE]

Modern engines that meet the emissions standard are far more complex electronically and I suspect it wouldn't be as simple a conversion as anyone would hope for

could they buy back something from elsewhere in Europe that might have "Grandfather rights?" I think that when we went from Malta to Gozo a decade (or 3) ago the ferry actually had rails in the [car]deck and signs in Dutch directing Fietsers up onto the sides - what would have been the sponsons of a paddle steamer!

When you think how low-impact this sort of ferry is (short crossings, small-engined/quite low-powered, there is an argument to be made that simplicity, = reliability, trumps other considerations for public transport, especially in remote areas.

How simple and robust could an electric version be? That would side-step the nightmare of modern emission-compliant diesel engines!

 

[styles]

Well I just got back from a trip to Barra and I have to say the ferry service was excellent.

 

[Russel]

Well I just got back from a trip to Barra and I have to say the ferry service was excellent.

Indeed, I've noticed Calmac can take quite a beating in the news and on social media, but although I'm only an infrequent traveller, I've always found them to be excellent.

 

[AndrewE]

This is a novel incident... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g6nd3x0ppo has:

Arran ferry evacuated over 'bomb threat' by passenger rescued from sea​

A 23-year-old man has been arrested after a ferry service on Scotland's west coast was evacuated over a bomb threat.

Operator CalMac said a passenger was reported overboard on the MV Caledonian Isles 16:40 service, carrying 329 people from Brodick on the Isle of Arran.

The BBC understands that after being pulled from the sea by the ferry's rescue boat, the man then told crew that there was a bomb on board.

All passengers were removed on foot at Ardrossan so the vessel could be searched. Police Scotland said it was established that the threats "were not credible".