Call for improvements to Southeastern metro

[bringbackcrouc]

Dear All,

I want to lobby my MP to improve the reliability and capacity of the Greenwich line (I.e regular 6 trains an hour on and off peak, 12 car train etc).

I want to come across as informed as possible so please may you help me identify why the service is limited at the moment.

I’m assuming these are the factors:
1) Sidings only accommodate 8 car trains
2) Depots only accommodate 8 car trains
3) Woolwich Arsenal (sorry, I should have said Woolwich Dockyard)
4) Limited terminating space at Cannon Street and Dartford
5) Not enough 12 car trains in existence on either Thameslink or Southeastern.
6) They’ll argue that there is no point investing since loads of people will change at Woolwich arsenal for Crossrail

Have I missed anything?

Cheers,

JC

 

[ScotGG]

3) Woolwich Dockyard not WA needs trains with SDO for 12 car trains.

Also Charing Cross.

12 car with SDO is quickest way to capacity gains. Needs new sidings.

Beyond that ATO would be needed at terminals.

 

[bionic]

1) Sidings only accommodate 8 car trains
2) Depots only accommodate 8 car trains

There is some stabling space for 12 car trains but nowhere near enough. Grove Park takes 12 in every road. Orpington takes 12 in all bays and the sidings but is used to keep quite a few 8 car 700s in.

3) Woolwich Arsenal (sorry, I should have said Woolwich Dockyard

Only takes 10, and it's very tight. Desperately needs units with SDO.

4) Limited terminating space at Cannon Street and Dartford

Cannon Street and Dartford both take 12 cars. Bigger problems at Charing Cross as mentioned above. The rounders alleviate a lot of issues mentioned with at Dartford by serving all stations on those routes bar Dartford, thus not clogging it up further.

5) Not enough 12 car trains in existence on either Thameslink or Southeastern.

465s are the only units that can make 12 car sets. You can't run 466s in a 12 car formation as the additional cabs make it too long. The large amount of 8 car 700s is due to platform lengths on the Catford and Sutton loop routes.

6) They’ll argue that there is no point investing since loads of people will change at Woolwich arsenal for Crossrail

It does seem to be the case that SE are banking on this happening to free up capacity. I guess passengers from further out would be changing at Abbey Wood to guarantee a seat though. I'm not sure there will be direct interchange at Woolwich either. As far as I know it's a separate station. Crossrail could end up being a victim of it's own success and being rammed after Woolwich. That won't do SE's capacity any harm though.

 

[hwl]

The new franchise tender got pulled so don't expect anything to come from letter writing as it would all be addressed in the medium term anyway with the new franchise. The issues are known, plenty of solutions proposed by DfT /bidders.

Total stabling space, most existing is OK length wise.
Lack of depot capacity for maintenance.
Some issues with 10car maximum practical length at Slade Green depot.
Lack of rolling stock - Woolwich Dockyard needs SDO for more than 11car as do many of the Charing Cross platforms used for the metro services hence replacement of most via London Bridge SE Metro stock is needed (as per bids).
Power supply limitation improved some what but would need more for complete 12car metro via London Bridge.
Cannon Street isn't an issue as far as anything can be done about it. Dartford is a wait till CR gets extended to Gravesend / Ebbsfleet in reality.
Crossrail will empty out trains at Abbey Wood - it isn't just about Woolwich interchange which is less good.

 

[ScotGG]

Crossrail will have a huge impact on Woolwich line. Much less on Bexleyheath and Sidcup. New housing growth on those lines (Lewisham, Kidbrooke etc) will more than make up for any small abstraction.

It makes me laugh to think there's an expectation many people will take a bus from areas such as Sidcup or Kidbrooke for at least 30 minutes on SE London's congested streets to reach Crossrail at Abbey Wood or Woolwich rather than continue to use the SE station 5 minutes from home and then change to DLR at Lewisham or tube/Thameslink at London Bridge

 

[brad465]

There is some stabling space for 12 car trains but nowhere near enough. Grove Park takes 12 in every road. Orpington takes 12 in all bays and the sidings but is used to keep quite a few 8 car 700s in.
Cannon Street and Dartford both take 12 cars. Bigger problems at Charing Cross as mentioned above. The rounders alleviate a lot of issues mentioned with at Dartford by serving all stations on those routes bar Dartford, thus not clogging it up further.

Dartford might take 12 cars but as has been said before in a thread on this subject one siding has been taken out of use on H&S grounds.

The issue with 12 cars is not just limitations in stations and stabling facilities to accommodate them, but there is not actually enough physical rolling stock to make many trains 12 car that could do with being that length. This won't be solved without a long term new franchise award and provisions for more stabling space, both of which seem a long way from happening.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

If a Tory government farmed off the entire southeastern region as a concession on the condition of significant investment, do you think there would be any takers?

 

[ScotGG]

What's that got to do with anything? No one is asking for that but investment as seen at other TOCs

 

[Bald Rick]

If a Tory government farmed off the entire southeastern region as a concession on the condition of significant investment, do you think there would be any takers?

Concesssion specified by, and reporting to, which authority?

 

[bringbackcrouc]

DfT I would have thought...

 

[gordonthemoron]

They could do with improving the up platform at Deptford, because it's on a curve, the trains tilt away from the platform making a big step into the train

 

[bionic]

Deptford was the terminus of the first passenger railway in London. I wonder if any of it is listed?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Deptford was the terminus of the first passenger railway in London. I wonder if any of it is listed?

I suspect the ramp on the southernside of the station may be

 

[Bald Rick]

DfT I would have thought...

Like it is now, you mean?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A nice big homogeneous fleet with plenty of capacity is what SouthEastern metro needs. They should do away with the 376s, 465s and 466s altogether, and then order 165x brand new trains, air conditioned and six carriages long, able to be coupled together to make a twelve carriage train. Yes I understand the issue of platform length

 

[bringbackcrouc]

Like it is now, you mean?

But as a concession, so one entity would be responsible for delivering improvements and running/commissioning services and they’d keep the revenue after paying for concession. A bit like London Marylebone services. Isn’t HS1 a concession?

 

[ComUtoR]

Dear All,

I want to lobby my MP to improve the reliability and capacity of the Greenwich line (I.e regular 6 trains an hour on and off peak, 12 car train etc).

I want to come across as informed as possible

You might want to start with gathering statistical data on reliability and capacity, rather than anecdotal evidence. Is the Greenwich line more or less reliable than other parts of the network ? Do you have loading data and passenger numbers as well as the predicted increases over the coming years with potential new development. Do you have train/carriage capacity numbers and if any new fleet would increase the number of seats and what that impact would be on capacity. I'd start crunching a lot of data.

so please may you help me identify why the service is limited at the moment.

Is it limited ? In what way do you think its limited ? Personally I think the 'Greenwich' line has a decent service and presents the most options to that part of the Southeast. As others have said, with the addition of Crossrail the line will gain in a capacity increase as well as a reduction in overcrowding. I'd also try to think why YOU are lobbying your MP. It's hard to present someone else's argument if you don't believe in it or can't back it up.

Have I missed anything?

How many tph can the line handle and are there available paths ?
Clashes at critical junctions - Lewisham, North Kent East, Southwark Reversible ?
Destination station - Cannon Street, Blackfriars and beyond the core, Victoria, Charing Cross ?
Impact on other parts of the network - Increasing services into Charing Cross may mean cutting back on services from the Sidcup etc ?
Staffing - additional services requires more staff ?
Costs and who pays for it ?
Implementation timescales - Crossrail to Dartford and beyond is a fair few years away and the bakerloo extension may/may not happen and also many years away. Are you planning a long term solution or are you more concerned about short term issues that could potentially be easily resolved ?
Who will run the franchise and run the line GTR/SE/Other ?
Will it require infrastructure upgrades (ETCS/ATO) changes to linespeeds, signalling etc ?

I hate to be 'that person' but in terms of the 'Greenwich Line' do you mean the 'North Kent' and the 'Greenwich' or just the Greenwich ?

Hope that helps.

 

[Bald Rick]

But as a concession, so one entity would be responsible for delivering improvements and running/commissioning services and they’d keep the revenue after paying for concession. A bit like London Marylebone services. Isn’t HS1 a concession?

HS1 is an infrastructure concession. It has no influence on what services are provided by the train operators that use the line (within the rough bounds of access charges).

The Chiltern services out of Marylebone are a franchise, not a concession.

In short, you don’t need a concession to get improved services. As Chiltern, Virgin, and many other franchises have demonstrated. What you do need is capacity on the network for additional / improved services, and/or the ability to create that capacity at a price worth paying. I’m afraid neither exist for Southeastern, with the exception of running (slightly) longer trains on some routes and having more capacity on those trains.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

Would that price be worth paying if there was a much longer franchise (ie Chiltern length)?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Dear All,

I want to lobby my MP to improve the reliability and capacity of the Greenwich line (I.e regular 6 trains an hour on and off peak, 12 car train etc).

I want to come across as informed as possible so please may you help me identify why the service is limited at the moment.

I’m assuming these are the factors:
1) Sidings only accommodate 8 car trains
2) Depots only accommodate 8 car trains
3) Woolwich Arsenal (sorry, I should have said Woolwich Dockyard)
4) Limited terminating space at Cannon Street and Dartford
5) Not enough 12 car trains in existence on either Thameslink or Southeastern.
6) They’ll argue that there is no point investing since loads of people will change at Woolwich arsenal for Crossrail

Have I missed anything?

Cheers,

JC

Hmmm. Many issues here.

12 car won’t fit at Woolwich Dockyard, so you need a new fleet with SDO realistically.

Slade Green cannot ‘produce’ 12 car trains for service. 10 maximum. Realistically if we had 12s they’d need to come out of Orpington, Grove Park and Gillingham. Significant work will he needed to rebuild Slade Green, Dartford, Plumstead and probably Grosvenor for Metro 12 car.

Terminating space isn’t a major problem in a uniform 12 car railway as something can come in and just go back out without certain diagrams being certain length etc. I believe Cannon Street is 12 car possible for all platforms; Charing Cross might be a problem.

People will change at Abbey Wood for Crossrail but that isn’t a soak up for all of the South East’s passengers. They will still need an effective railway to the City and London Bridge. Crossrail also doesn’t help people from Charlton and further in to London, does it...

 

[Bald Rick]

Would that price be worth paying if there was a much longer franchise (ie Chiltern length)?

Enhancements to the network are (usually) paid for by Government. The Chiltern evergreen examples worked partly because of the long franchise, but mostly because they were a relatively cheap way of getting significant additional capacity on a high value route (essentially north of Bicester). None of this applies on SE.