Call for double-decker trains on Edinburgh - Glasgow services

[najaB]

Calls for double decker train service between Glasgow and Edinburgh

INTRODUCING European style double decker trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh would help solve Scotland’s rail crisis, former Transport Minister Alex Neil has said.

However, union leaders described the idea as 'pie in the sky'. The cost of such an endeavour would be enormous as tunnels would have to be heightened or rails sunk lower in the earth to accommodate the kind of two-level trains seen in places like the Netherlands and Germany.

However, Neil said rail renationalisation would allow Scotland to pursue such radical innovations, as well as bring in “Ryanair” style cut price fares during off-peak hours

In how many ways is this a non-starter?

 

[dk1]

I count even bring myself to read the rubbish & would wind me up reading stupid comments from stupid members of the public. Same old same old (yawns).

 

[gordonthemoron]

running longer or more frequent services would presumably be a lot cheaper

 

[najaB]

running longer or more frequent services would presumably be a lot cheaper

The former of which happens this year, the latter in a few years after the additional infrastructure goes in.

 

[DarloRich]

sky in the pie. Wont ever happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pointless until they max out the length of the single decker ones, they are nowhere near 12x20m/11x23m yet, which is generally considered a sensible limit based on how far from the barriers anyone is likely to be willing to walk.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Double decker will only happen on new routes. Every route has at least one structure where getting comfortable double deck trains in just cannot happen due to various constraints.

A shame really, would be interesting to see if any future self enclosed new lines can make double decker work.

 

[Denzo]

Double decker will only happen on new routes. Every route has at least one structure where getting comfortable double deck trains in just cannot happen due to various constraints.

A shame really, would be interesting to see if any future self enclosed new lines can make double decker work.

Wasn't there talk of a new non-stopping route to be built between the two cities?

Still baffles me that the quickest route between them goes up the back way through Falkirk whilst the more direct route that runs parallel to the M8 takes longer.

 

[najaB]

Wasn't there talk of a new non-stopping route to be built between the two cities?

There is likely to be a high-speed route constructed in the not too distant future. I don't know if it will be non-stop or one-stop though.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Pointless until they max out the length of the single decker ones, they are nowhere near 12x20m/11x23m yet, which is generally considered a sensible limit based on how far from the barriers anyone is likely to be willing to walk.

Queen Street station is stuck between the city centre and the tunnel portal so 8x23m is all you're ever going to get. There are similar problems on the western side of Waverley, as the long platforms are through ones which are required for cross-Edinburgh services. After the de-scoped EGIP works there's not much that really can be done for the line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Queen Street station is stuck between the city centre and the tunnel portal so 8x23m is all you're ever going to get. There are similar problems on the western side of Waverley, as the long platforms are through ones which are required for cross-Edinburgh services. After the de-scoped EGIP works there's not much that really can be done for the line.

You probably could flatten and rebuild Queen St's buildings to get one more coach length if you put it semi-underground with access via a mezzanine concourse. Would be costly for limited gain though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A shame really, would be interesting to see if any future self enclosed new lines can make double decker work.

Probably more than a passing chance of HS2 captive rolling stock being double-decker. But they will need to take care not to be taken by a view that you're going to get any more than a multiplier of about 1.2-1.4 over a single-deck vehicle in it. That's when they get seriously rubbish.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Double decker will only happen on new routes. Every route has at least one structure where getting comfortable double deck trains in just cannot happen due to various constraints.

A shame really, would be interesting to see if any future self enclosed new lines can make double decker work.

Will HS2 be built to permit double decker trains? And was HS1 built to accommodate them? The double deck TGVs are excellent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will HS2 be built to permit double decker trains? And was HS1 built to accommodate them?

I'd imagine so, both are to UIC gauge, and you can get a double decker in standard UIC gauge. The problems with doing one in UK gauge primarily relate to the lack of width at and below platform level.

The double deck TGVs are excellent.

I've not been on one, but I've seen good (newer DB stock, particularly the IC-Dosto - a real high quality feel), average (SBB Stadler KISS - a bit white-plasticky and slightly small windows but seats decent) and absolutely dire (SBB IC2000 - seats too narrow, almost no luggage provision, tiny windows in a country where the view is a major selling point, slow single leaf doors, stupid litter bins where your knees go and so on - utterly unfit for purpose).

 

[Crossover]

What is the capacity increase like on a double decker in comparison to a single?

I think the biggest problem we would have here is loading gauge not being sufficient to allow such carriages on the majority of existing lines. Beyond that though, I can't help but wonder if there would be an accessibility issue raised too as you board a double decker train and generally have to go up or down - not much on the level. It makes catering a little more tricky too

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the capacity increase like on a double decker in comparison to a single?

Not more than 1.6x approximately, but if you go that high comfort levels are usually very poor, even compared to going 3+2 on a single deck vehicle. With most UIC designs the double deck section only takes up about 2/3 to 3/4 of the vehicle length, and you lose a bit more of the lower deck area than that to stairways and wider doors.

Between 1.2x and 1.3x gives you a good comfort level.

Like with a modern bus, it'll never be twice the capacity or anywhere near it.

 

[PR1Berske]

"However, Neil said rail renationalisation would allow Scotland to pursue such radical innovations"

I suspect people have claimed nationalisation would provide an entire shopping list of benefits without end!

 

[HSTEd]

However if you limit the speed to ~200kph double decker trains with two full through-corridors can be built, which reduces the need for huge numbers of staircases. I believe Talgo proposed one at some point.

 

[QueensCurve]

Calls for double decker train service between Glasgow and Edinburgh


In how many ways is this a non-starter?

Might it become a starter given the provision of new much larger electrical clearances?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might it become a starter given the provision of new much larger electrical clearances?

No. The main problem isn't the wires (a UK double decker would be quite low, but not impossibly so - it has after all been done before in the form of the "one and a half decker" 4-DD). The main problem is width below platform level. Because moving platforms back would leave a massive gap, it's only feasible to do it on a self contained line that does not use any other stock.

If you didn't solve that problem, you'd be lucky to get 1+1 downstairs with quite narrow seating, and due to the curve in probably 2+1 upstairs. A little bit of maths considering the amount of wasted space you get on a double decker for stairs, wider doors etc would indicate that you'd get *more* seats in if you just went single-deck 3+2, and barely fewer with single-deck 2+2.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Although there are long double-deck trains on the continent, there are plenty of new ones which are only 3x26m (eg Stadler KISS on Luxembourg-Koblenz).
Makes you wonder why they don't just use longer single-deck trains.
I suppose it might avoid extending platforms - a major cost.
http://www.wort.lu/en/luxembourg/cf...d-ride-in-luxembourg-54298c73b9b398870806e02c

Still, you'd think a former transport minister would know how impossible it would be on the classic network.
I'm not even sure Chris Grayling has abandoned the notion either.
DfT still wants NR to do feasibility studies.
They would work on HS2 but all they plan to buy are single-deck classic compatibles in the short term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's basically cheaper to build 3 DoSto coaches than 6 single deck ones.

That CFL Stadler unit looks rather nice. And much less Spartan than the Swiss regional ones.

I think (on reflection) it's the same as the new DB Regio interior - the 2nd class certainly is.

 

[clc]

Seems odd that a former SNP Cabinet Secretary (who I think had the transport brief for while) would suggest this when he knows Edinburgh-Glasgow HSR is being developed which will be able to accommodate end to end demand for a very long time.

Very strange comments from Alex Neil.

 

[JonasB]

Beyond that though, I can't help but wonder if there would be an accessibility issue raised too as you board a double decker train and generally have to go up or down - not much on the level. It makes catering a little more tricky too

There are a lot of modern double deckers all over Europe where accessibility is not a problem. I have the impression that in most modern double deckers you bord the train at the lower lever and can then choose to stay on that level or go upstairs.

The main problem is width below platform level. Because moving platforms back would leave a massive gap, it's only feasible to do it on a self contained line that does not use any other stock.

How massive gap are we talking about? And would it be terribly expensive to retrofit older stock with some kind of retractable foot steps to fill the gap?

If you didn't solve that problem, you'd be lucky to get 1+1 downstairs with quite narrow seating, and due to the curve in probably 2+1 upstairs. A little bit of maths considering the amount of wasted space you get on a double decker for stairs, wider doors etc would indicate that you'd get *more* seats in if you just went single-deck 3+2, and barely fewer with single-deck 2+2.

3+2 seating on a train built for UK loading gauge sounds horrible. Has it been done before?

Although there are long double-deck trains on the continent, there are plenty of new ones which are only 3x26m (eg Stadler KISS on Luxembourg-Koblenz).
Makes you wonder why they don't just use longer single-deck trains.
I suppose it might avoid extending platforms - a major cost.
http://www.wort.lu/en/luxembourg/cf...d-ride-in-luxembourg-54298c73b9b398870806e02c

Short platforms can be a major reason. Another one can be flexibility, use a single 3x26 m-unit on when demand is low, couple two or three together during rush hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How massive gap are we talking about? And would it be terribly expensive to retrofit older stock with some kind of retractable foot steps to fill the gap?

...should give you an idea. The thing is, there's a lot of older stock you'd have to fit these theoretical steps to.

3+2 seating on a train built for UK loading gauge sounds horrible. Has it been done before?

Yes, it is the usual layout for commuter trains, though falling out of favour. It isn't particularly comfortable unless you're a child or a midget (groups of 6 seats can actually be quite popular with families, FWIW), but nor would a DoSto in UK loading gauge be particularly comfortable either.

UK stock width above platform level isn't much narrower than UIC stock, anyway. A UIC X-Wagen (DB Bm235, for example) is 2.825m wide, typical UK commuter stock ranges from 2.76m (Class 350 and 450, the narrowest UK stock fitted with 3+2 seating) to 2.82m (almost all of the 1980s-built Mk3-derived commuter DMUs and EMUs). The main constraints are vehicle length, bogie spacing and height (but only to a limited extent). While the UK has 25m vehicles (Pendolino end coaches) and will soon have 26m ones (IEP), the bogies are much closer together so your "downstairs" section would only be able to be about 1/2 to 2/3 of the length, too.

 

[Clansman]

Wow, just when Scotrail is on the brink of introducing 7 car trains on EG as well, he decides to come out with this. Although I'm an SNP supporter and a fan of renationalising Scotrail, I just think that there couldn't be a worse argument to do so.
Double decker trains would cost way more to introduce than they would probably ever generate through its lifespan.
A modern double decker train on existing UK loading gauge is just a recipe for disaster. I think the current EGIP plans are enough in the long run, with an extra carriage per peak time train, as well as scope for full 8 car operation.
There's really no need to go through the hassle of implementing double deckers to be honest. The closest the UK will get to double deckers is on a non-classic compatible High Speed Railway, or on rural diesel only lines.

Never say never though

 

[NSEFAN]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. He's probably seen double decker trains, thought "why can't we have those?", but not actually thought to ask anyone in the know or even googling it before publicly stating it as an aspiration.

 

[najaB]

The closest the UK will get to double deckers is on a non-classic compatible High Speed Railway, or on rural diesel only lines.

Which need them the least.

 

[JonasB]

...should give you an idea. The thing is, there's a lot of older stock you'd have to fit these theoretical steps to.

Thank you! There seems to be a 27 cm gap on each side. But you have to start somewhere. And wouldn't it be necessary to do something similar in the future to have trains than can run on both HS2 and older lines?

I don't mean to be rude, but my impression from visiting the UK is that British trains are not up to the same standard as other trains in Western Europe (although it seems like things are happening!). A small loading gauge is a problem, but maybe it can make sense to start widening the loading gauge in selected areas like the Central Belt? Or build a new rail line between Glasgow and Edinburgh, that in the future can be connected to HS2?

Yes, it is the usual layout for commuter trains, though falling out of favour. It isn't particularly comfortable unless you're a child or a midget (groups of 6 seats can actually be quite popular with families, FWIW), but nor would a DoSto in UK loading gauge be particularly comfortable either.

UK stock width above platform level isn't much narrower than UIC stock, anyway. A UIC X-Wagen (DB Bm235, for example) is 2.825m wide, typical UK commuter stock ranges from 2.76m (Class 350 and 450, the narrowest UK stock fitted with 3+2 seating) to 2.82m (almost all of the 1980s-built Mk3-derived commuter DMUs and EMUs). The main constraints are vehicle length, bogie spacing and height (but only to a limited extent). While the UK has 25m vehicles (Pendolino end coaches) and will soon have 26m ones (IEP), the bogies are much closer together so your "downstairs" section would only be able to be about 1/2 to 2/3 of the length, too.

That is a smaller difference than I expected. But I can't remember having travelled in 2+3 seating on the continent. My only experience of it is from Sweden, the Stockholm commuter trains that use 2+3 seating are 3.26 m wide, and when the Regina regional trains were introduced, the 2+3-seating were critizied by commuters, and those trains are 3.45 m wide.

 

[Spartacus]

One of the often overlooked problems with double deck trains is that while capacity is increased the number of doors usually isn't, the design usually makes this impossible with double deckers. This leads to increased station dwell times, over and beyond that of crowded single deckers, and so longer journeys.