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Caledonian Sleeper

norbitonflyer

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Can you double head and get twice the ETH, and if not why not ?
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I don't think so, as all the ETH power, even if some of it is generated in the first loco, has to pass through the jumper connections between the second loco and the train. If those connections are not rated for ETS 180 something will go bang. (A class 90 is ETS 95, a 73/9 is ETS 96 - i don't have the figures for a mark 5's ETS but it is presumably nearer 10 than 6 (mark 3 sleepers were 6)
 
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RailUK Forums

Justin Smith

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Sheffield
Not sure any UK Loco's had the applicable couplers with the Cl73/92's modified for the MkV sleeper stock, the "auto couplers" improve safety and should also reduce impacts during coupling/splitting of the train which is a helpful feature on a sleeper service.

The sleeper stock has a large "Hotel Power" requirement due to modern service requirements so the stock has a different ETS system to the historical ones. I believe the system is the same as planned for the Channel Tunnel Nightstock vehicles hence why the Cl92's were they only real option apart from new build loco's.
What about a generator car ? Not a new idea, I believe some Class 27s had an additional diesel engine fitted to provide ETH for Mk2 coaches ?
 

HighlandStorm

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27 Sep 2024
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Inverness
What about a generator car ? Not a new idea, I believe some Class 27s had an additional diesel engine fitted to provide ETH for Mk2 coaches ?
Still hit the train length problem at Euston though. There was a Caledonian Sleeper liveried generator coach (converted mark 3?) floating around Inverness for a while - what happened to it?

Can a 99 haul the 92 with the 92 providing hotel power if not completely dead (though again the length problem)!
 
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I don't think so, as all the ETH power, even if some of it is generated in the first loco, has to pass through the jumper connections between the second loco and the train.
It is I believe more incompatible than that. In order to supply the increased power, the Mk5 ETS is at 1500V rather than UK standard 1000V. This is available from the 92s because it is standard on the continent. Higher voltage means less current for the same power, but an incompatible electrical setup and jumpers, hence why no other UK traction is currently capable of the ETS for the sleeper, apart from the ex-Nightstar generator vans. The van at Inverness is one of these, they all now belong to Eastern Rail Services.

 

JamieL

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6 Aug 2022
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UK
There are a few nuances to using a railcard on CS:

Discounts on Seats:
16-25 Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products
Senior Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products
HM Forces Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Veterans Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Family & Friends Railcard – Up to a third discount for adults and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Disabled Adult and Child Railcards – Up to a third discount for the Railcard holder and a companion travelling in seated products.
Two Together – Up to a third discount on seated products.

Discounts on Classic and Club Cabins:
16-25 Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
Senior Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
HM Forces Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
Veterans Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
Disabled Adult and Child Railcards – Up to a third discount for the Railcard holder and a companion travelling together in either Club or Classic, shared or solo rooms.

Discounts on Double Cabins:
There are no Railcard discounts available on Caledonian Double en-suite rooms.

Railcards Not Accepted (Not Exhaustive)
16-17 Saver – We do not offer discounts on any rooms or seated products
26-30 Railcard – We do not offer discounts on any rooms or seated products

Source:
 

oscar654

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25 Jul 2026
Messages
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East Anglia
There are a few nuances to using a railcard on CS:

Discounts on Seats:
16-25 Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products
Senior Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products
HM Forces Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Veterans Railcard – Up to a third discount on seated products and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Family & Friends Railcard – Up to a third discount for adults and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Disabled Adult and Child Railcards – Up to a third discount for the Railcard holder and a companion travelling in seated products.
Two Together – Up to a third discount on seated products.

Discounts on Classic and Club Cabins:
16-25 Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
Senior Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
HM Forces Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
Veterans Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms
Disabled Adult and Child Railcards – Up to a third discount for the Railcard holder and a companion travelling together in either Club or Classic, shared or solo rooms.

Discounts on Double Cabins:
There are no Railcard discounts available on Caledonian Double en-suite rooms.

Railcards Not Accepted (Not Exhaustive)
16-17 Saver – We do not offer discounts on any rooms or seated products
26-30 Railcard – We do not offer discounts on any rooms or seated products

Source:
Thank you, I’ve discovered that I can get a railcard discount on a room So well worth the cost of a room.
 

norbitonflyer

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24 Mar 2020
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SW London
Not quite sure what you are trying to say?
A shorter train - 15 coaches instead of 16 - to make space for a generator car or second lco.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What about a generator car ? Not a new idea, I believe some Class 27s had an additional diesel engine fitted to provide ETH for Mk2 coaches ?
They did - they were subclass 27/2.
 

Bill57p9

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1 Dec 2019
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Location
Ayrshire
What about a generator car ? Not a new idea, I believe some Class 27s had an additional diesel engine fitted to provide ETH for Mk2 coaches ?
British Rail operated this concept on the London to Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers (they were separate in those days) north of Edinburgh in two guises, first with Electric Train Heat Ex Locomotives (ETHELs) : a fleet of 3 converted former class 24s, and later with BGs converted into generator vans. The sleepers were double (non-heat) 37 hauled at the time.

Modern ETS connectors are rated at 600A, which corresponds to an ETS index of 100, insufficient for a full train of 16 mk5s.

The length limitation isn’t Euston itself: Platform 1 is long enough for 16 mk5s top and tailed with 92s.

Out of interest, does anyone know whether the 73/9s on diesel are 1000V or 1500V ETS? (They will almost certainly be third rail voltage on third rail, not that that is relevant in Scotland).
 

popeter45

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london
you could get dual use out of a Generator car if you used a DVT for it like what Chiltern did with its Mk3 sets, removes one of the Class 92's needed for Euston and Glasgow Moves
 

norbitonflyer

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British Rail operated this concept on the London to Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers (they were separate in those days) north of Edinburgh in two guises, first with Electric Train Heat Ex Locomotives (ETHELs) : a fleet of 3 converted former class 24 25s, and later with BGs converted into generator vans. The sleepers were double (non-heat) 37 hauled at the time.
I thought they were used on the Fort William portion. Inverness and Aberdeen used ETH fitted 47s, but they were not cleared for the West Highland
 

35B

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I thought they were used on the Fort William portion. Inverness and Aberdeen used ETH fitted 47s, but they were not cleared for the West Highland
This is about two different periods. The first period was after the introduction of the Mk3 Sleepers, when 47/4s were used on the Inverness and Aberdeen portions, and Eastfield 37/4s on the WHL. The 47/4 fleets varied a little, but towards the end were a small number of "47/6" converted with a 75mph restriction to go with different brake blocks (I have notes of doing significantly more than 75 on a daytime train on the HML).

Later, from I think about 1994, the Aberdeen and Inverness portions changed to pairs of 37s working with generator vans - giving the odd sight of 37/0s and 37/5s in full Swallow livery

This all came to an end with the introduction of the 67s as standard diesel power for the Sleepers
 

CW2

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Crewe
From memory, the full inter city livery was applied to the "dedicated" sleeper pool locos 37505, 37510, 37683 and 37685.
Mixing 37/0 and refurb/regeared 37s on the sleepers was frowned upon, as they tended to fight each other, so if one of the dedicated sleeper pool locos was unavailable then you would normally be treated to a pair of 37/0s.
 

SuspectUsual

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Two portions at least, as the up and down legs of each portion could use the same one - the southbounds reach Edinburgh long before the northbounds leave.

It wasn't structured the same way back then though was it? I couldn't remember the timings so erred on the side of caution, but when I did the FW in the 1980s I think the shunting happened at Mossend
 

norbitonflyer

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It wasn't structured the same way back then though was it? I couldn't remember the timings so erred on the side of caution, but when I did the FW in the 1980s I think the shunting happened at Mossend
It certainly did when I first used the FW sleeper in 1980, (a convoluted operation involving one loco from Mossend to Cowlairs, a second down the bank into Queen Street, and a third to take it out again)
But the northbound was nevertheless there some time after the southbound had left for London.
 

capital12

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From memory, the full inter city livery was applied to the "dedicated" sleeper pool locos 37505, 37510, 37683 and 37685.
Mixing 37/0 and refurb/regeared 37s on the sleepers was frowned upon, as they tended to fight each other, so if one of the dedicated sleeper pool locos was unavailable then you would normally be treated to a pair of 37/0s.
There were certainly two 37/0s in Swallow (152 and 251) and there may have been more - 285 possibly another?

And I don’t think mixed pairs with refurbs were that uncommon - frowned upon or not!
 

43096

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Can you double head and get twice the ETH, and if not why not ?
No, you can't. Standard ETH is ~800/1000V, the sleeper sets use 1500V south of Edinburgh when hauled by the 92s.

The issue is the high power draw on the long sleeper sets; to keep the amps within tolerable limits, the voltage has been increased. That's also why you can get twice the ETH - in theory you'd get twice the amps; although in reality you'd get a big bang.
 

43096

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British Rail operated this concept on the London to Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers (they were separate in those days) north of Edinburgh in two guises, first with Electric Train Heat Ex Locomotives (ETHELs) : a fleet of 3 converted former class 24s, and later with BGs converted into generator vans. The sleepers were double (non-heat) 37 hauled at the time.
The ETHELs were ex-Class 25 and they were for the Fort William sleeper (not Inverness or Aberdeen) before the Class 37/4s were converted as there was nothing RA5 with ETH at that time. Once the 37/4s arrived the ETHELs went onto charter duties. Inverness and Aberdeen did not have the RA5 restriction, so Class 47/4s could be used.

It was only later (early 1990s?) that the three BGs were converted into generator vans, when the Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers went over to pairs of no-heat 37s.
 

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