Caledonian Sleeper

[sh24]

It is a tourist attraction more than anything, I am sure some people on business use it, but it will always be limited

exactly. I'll use it again, likely once, to tick off some rare track at Wembley and onto the ECML but it's just not a sensible option for me.

 

[Statto]

I priced the Sleeper for a regular trip to Aberdeen, booking 3 months out. £290 for a Club, £210 for a Classic. Or I can pay BA £80, another £80 for one of the airport hotels, save either £50 or £130 and have a decent nights sleep too. It's not a serious mode of transport for most people travelling on business.

Most travelling on business would get a flight, i see BA & Easyjet have flights from Inverness & Aberdeen to Heathrow or Luton, but what's the flight prices compared with the sleeper?

 

[sh24]

Most travelling on business would get a flight, i see BA & Easyjet have flights from Inverness & Aberdeen to Heathrow or Luton, but what's the flight prices compared with the sleeper?

£80 on BA booking 3 months out, as per my post. With easyJet that's often achievable 2-3 weeks out. If you have a small pot of Avios then both are often do-able at very short notice for 4500 + £30ish.

 

[75A]

For me it was never the cost it was the time.
Once a month i'd leave home & drive the 30 minutes to Birmingham Airport, take an hour flight to Edinburgh, get picked up and driven the 10 minutes to our Office. Spend 4 or 5 hours there and repeat the process to return. Having the luxury of sleeping in my own bed with my own Wife.
Taking the train was never an option and certainly not practical for my monthly visit to Belfast.

 

[JamieL]

It's not a serious mode of transport for most people travelling on business.

Well I use it for business and find it very serious. Means I can embark in the late night at home (and thus have the full day before at home) and wake up in Central London. 10min walk to the station at the start, 10min tube at the other end. Very time efficient. Cost (to the business) will be no issue to the execs travelling.

 

[sh24]

Well I use it for business and find it very serious. Means I can embark in the late night at home (and thus have the full day before at home) and wake up in Central London. 10min walk to the station at the start, 10min tube at the other end. Very time efficient. Cost (to the business) will be no issue to the execs travelling.

Are you travelling from a city with direct London air links? or somewhere more rural?

 

[JamieL]

Are you travelling from a city with direct London air links? or somewhere more rural?

From a town about 20 miles out of Glasgow.

 

[sh24]

From a town about 20 miles out of Glasgow.

If that's where I think it is, I can see some of the Sleeper attraction as you avoid a 45 minute journey to GLA and a London hotel is 3-4x the cost of one in Glasgow/Aberdeen or Inverness. Edinburgh more season dependent.

But the poor sleep quality on board would still rule it out for me, save for the novelty.

 

[styles]

But the poor sleep quality on board would still rule it out for me, save for the novelty.

If you have enough Glengoyne in the Club car you can sleep through anything

 

[trebor79]

If that's where I think it is, I can see some of the Sleeper attraction as you avoid a 45 minute journey to GLA and a London hotel is 3-4x the cost of one in Glasgow/Aberdeen or Inverness. Edinburgh more season dependent.

But the poor sleep quality on board would still rule it out for me, save for the novelty.

Yes I have used CS and the Night Riviera for business and both times definitely did not perform at my best due to poor/no sleep.
In contrast the overnight ferry to Holland is perfect for my circa 6 times a year business trips. Sleep very well and much more civilised and time efficient than flying, often considerably cheaper too. There's just too much banging, crashing, rocking and rolling for me to sleep on a moving train, unfortunately.

 

[JamieL]

If that's where I think it is, I can see some of the Sleeper attraction as you avoid a 45 minute journey to GLA and a London hotel is 3-4x the cost of one in Glasgow/Aberdeen or Inverness. Edinburgh more season dependent.

But the poor sleep quality on board would still rule it out for me, save for the novelty.

It is also the timings. When I fly and use the red eye, I need to get up around 0345 and am still (at least) 30 minutes later into the Office. If I go for the last evening flight it is still hours earlier than the train even before taking into account the travel to the airport. On the train I get a full night's sleep, a shower (of sorts) and breakfast.

 

[185143]

All depends on your needs!

A lot of the traffic probably is tourist. And I seem to remember reading here a few years back that 70% of passengers are first time users. I can well believe that from my experience.

But, say, £250 for a berth from London to Inverness. Does that really compare too poorly to a hotel in Central London after a meeting and a BA flight the next day? Genuinely. I've never properly looked into it.

For a tight a**e like me, the seats are acceptable. I'm usually on to/from Fort William when I do it, which makes the train far more attractive than anything else too. But I can get them pretty easily for less than £50 with a railcard. For what is effectively a 1st class seat, I can't criticise that.

The last couple of trips have been on an outbound Interrail so have been completely free. In fact the last one I did it solely because I had an early Eurostar and I didn't want to pay London hotel prices!

I would obviously like the rooms to be cheaper. But given it is heavily subsidised at current prices, they can usually fill it (or be close to) and tourists bring more money to the Scottish economy than business travel, I'm not sure it should be subsidised any further given they can pretty much comfortably fill it.

That being said, for the Fort William portion. And that portion only, maybe some equivalent scheme to the ferry/air subsidy for the locals may be worthwhile? All the other portion termini have Easyjet as an alternative. Fort William doesn't even have BA or Loganair. They are reliant on the train or coach at least to Glasgow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2026 ==

If you have enough Glengoyne in the Club car you can sleep through anything

No comment.

 

[JamesT]

If you have enough Glengoyne in the Club car you can sleep through anything

Generally alcohol negatively affects sleep. You may be lucky, but for most people it’s not going to get you a full night of recuperative rest.

 

[styles]

All depends on your needs!

A lot of the traffic probably is tourist. And I seem to remember reading here a few years back that 70% of passengers are first time users. I can well believe that from my experience.

It's hard to find out recent data, but after a journey on the CS the passenger is sent a satisfaction survey.

In the last quarterly report, for journeys between London and Scotland:

* 13% first ever journey
* 25% first journey in 12 months
* 27% 2-3 journeys
* 22% 4-11 journeys
* 8% 12+ journeys

Regarding journeys between London and Scotland specifically on the Sleeper:

* 13% none
* 31% 1 journey
* 34% 2-3 journeys
* 17% 4-11 journeys
* 5% 12+ journeys

And in terms of journey purpose:

* 22% work/business
* 75% leisure
* 3% other

The limitation in this survey of course is how likely a recurring traveller is to complete the surveys, especially more than once. I get the surveys but rarely complete them, in the same way I don't fill out every survey link from a hotel stay or from every flight.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2026 ==

Generally alcohol negatively affects sleep. You may be lucky, but for most people it’s not going to get you a full night of recuperative rest.

Yeah I wasn't quite a serious suggestion... I tend to have a tea (which they often provide for free), do some work, then bed, sleep straight through until morning, coffee and brekkie, shower, work.

 

[SuspectUsual]

* 22% work/business
* 75% leisure
* 3% other

3% I needed the 68 and 73 for haulage?

 

[sh24]

If you have enough Glengoyne in the Club car you can sleep through anything

True, though the morning of arrival could be pretty grim.

 

[GordonT]

I wonder whether there are still any regulars who work in London for much of the week and catch one of the sleepers on Thursday or Friday evening to spend the weekend at the family home in Scotland?
When Kirsty Wark was a presenter on BBC Newsnight she used to get whizzed to Euston to catch the Glasgow sleeper straight after her Newsnight stint. Similarly it at one time suited some of the Scottish MPs to utilise a sleeper to get home at weekends.

 

[styles]

I wonder whether there are still any regulars who work in London for much of the week and catch one of the sleepers on Thursday or Friday evening to spend the weekend at the family home in Scotland?
When Kirsty Wark was a presenter on BBC Newsnight she used to get whizzed to Euston to catch the Glasgow sleeper straight after her Newsnight stint. Similarly it at one time suited some of the Scottish MPs to utilise a sleeper to get home at weekends.

It wouldn't surprise me. It's also not such a bad expense for company owners, directors, etc if they can stay under the 2 years rule as it avoids corporation tax and either income tax or dividends tax; so even if it costs more than say a daytime train/flight and hotel, it's not as much more as it appears to a typical consumer. There's also the carnet/flexipasses but don't know how they compare really; and also some people who have one of the Railcards which get room discounts.

 

[D6130]

3% I needed the 68 and 73 for haulage?

68 haulage? Shome mishtake, surely? - Ed.

(A wee bit too much Glengoyne in the club car, methinks! )

 

[SuspectUsual]

68 haulage? Shome mishtake, surely? - Ed.

(A wee bit too much Glengoyne in the club car, methinks! )

No idea how I managed that! And that would be the last thing I'd drink.....Guinness, beer, wine all yes..... spirits a big no!

 

[mq90]

and also some people who have one of the Railcards which get room discounts.

Do tell

 

[styles]

Do tell

Railcards

Caledonian Sleeper. Information on railcard discounts available on Caledonian Sleeper services between London and Scotland.

www.sleeper.scot

Railcards accepted by Caledonian Sleeper
16-25 Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms and seated products
16-17 Saver – We do not offer discounts on any rooms or seated products
26-30 Railcard – We do not offer discounts on any rooms or seated products
Senior Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms and seated products
HM Forces Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms and seated products and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Veterans Railcard – Up to a third discount on Club Solo or Classic Solo rooms and seated products and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Family & Friends Railcard – Up to a third discount for adults and up to 81% for children on seated products.
Disabled Adult and Child Railcards – Up to a third discount for the Railcard holder and a companion travelling together in either Club or Classic, shared or solo rooms and seated products.
Two Together – Up to a third discount on seated products.


There are no Railcard discounts available on Caledonian Double en-suite rooms.

 

[danshrimp]

Similarly it at one time suited some of the Scottish MPs to utilise a sleeper to get home at weekends.

Still happens. I've even known northern English MPs to use it, doubling back as necessary, to be back in their constituencies first thing in the morning after a late night sitting.

 

[Virginfan123]

I often wonder if the CS operation could be expanded and in doing so introduce some efficiencies. Why not have a dedicated Inverness bound Highlander run from King's Cross to Inverness with the maximum length possible? We know that is a major tourist route so would be an easy win. Equally bin the combined Glasgow/Edinburgh Sleepers and have a dedicated full length train going to each from Euston and King's Cross. The FW/Aberdeen Highlander could then go as a 16 car train with two seated carriages and two diner cars with a simple split at Edinburgh. This would increase capacity but would avoid all the shunting/additional staffing required for the manoeuvres at Carstairs and Edinburgh. I appreciate there isn't the rolling stock for this at this time.

There is no depot in London that can easily and efficiently service both Euston and Kings Cross so you essentially have to pick one, of which Euston is the better choice as it is larger, has the already established Wembley depot/stabling yard and has the facilities at the station.

What is even the need to run the Edinburgh train from Kings Cross unless you intend to stop trains at Newcastle, Berwick etc.?

Instead of splitting the Highlander at Edinburgh, which is a massive detour for both services, with the reduced complexity of the splitting now that the Inverness service is seperate, why don't you look for somewhere else to split, for example Motherwell , meaning the journeys become far quicker, especially making the Fort William arrival earlier than the current 10:00.

Additionally, the Inverness service running seperately would only be sustainable during the summer months, with the units running more than half empty any other time.

 

[BRX]

Additionally, the Inverness service running seperately would only be sustainable during the summer months, with the units running more than half empty any other time.

Does the Inverness portion currently run half empty outside of the summer? I thought it actually was quite well loaded most of the year. Obviously generating more revenue in the summer when they can crank the prices up.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Does the Inverness portion currently run half empty outside of the summer? I thought it actually was quite well loaded most of the year. Obviously generating more revenue in the summer when they can crank the prices up.

Is it beyond the wit of man to have a summer and winter service? I have take the Cally to Inverness in Summer using my priv and it was completely full. If it’s not going to be completely full all year round but would be for a large chunk of the year then surely the answer is invest in some new (non-CAF) rolling stock and run more trains in summer but fewer in winter and have a rotation plan for the coaches to ensure even wear and tear.

If one will allow me to bust out the crayons to make some marketing materials you could actually still use the new stock in winter if you marketed a night ski train for the resorts in Scotland. Aviemore would be the obvious choice, and you could simply run the train up to Inverness afterwards for turnaround (in service or ECS), but a service to Perth or Dundee would also have potential if you could work out a deal with those enterprising chaps at Ember Bus to have a dedicated (electric) coach transfer from the sleeper to the Glenshee resort in time for first lift.

If you want lots of crayons, then run the spare train once or twice a week to Bourg-Saint-Maurice in France, which is just about the only place you could do this without waking everyone up at Lille, as it has passport and customs facilities for Eurostar, but that is a lot of crayons.

 

[leightonbd]

Does the Inverness portion currently run half empty outside of the summer? I thought it actually was quite well loaded most of the year. Obviously generating more revenue in the summer when they can crank the prices up.

Well, Inverness is my line and I would say that 33-50% of the time, trying to book 2-3 weeks in advance, I can’t get a room. That’s based on about 20 trips over the last two years or so. (I only book northbound because, addressing a separate issue, the issues with punctuality are such that I’m not able to take the risk of delay; I work as a lecturer/ trainer so turning up late isn’t an option). So I agree,I think is is a well loaded route at any time of year. This may be because they take the odd carriage out of service at off-peak times for repair, maintenance, deep clean etc.

 

[JamieL]

That does not introduce any efficiency - quite the opposite. You need more coaches, more locomotives and more staff. For an operation that loses money hand-over-fist, you just rack up even more losses.

It offers efficiency by not asking seated customers to transfer at Edinburgh and not having to do so much shunting. It obviously means more coaches and locos though as the idea would massively up capacity and thus passengers.

As for the cost, the entire railway is a loss maker. We fund it because of the broader economic and social benefits it brings - and in that context the CS is probably one of the most important trains on the entire network.

 

[Western Gaffer]

If one will allow me to bust out the crayons to make some marketing materials you could actually still use the new stock in winter if you marketed a night ski train for the resorts in Scotland. Aviemore would be the obvious choice, and you could simply run the train up to Inverness afterwards for turnaround (in service or ECS), but a service to Perth or Dundee would also have potential if you could work out a deal with those enterprising chaps at Ember Bus to have a dedicated (electric) coach transfer from the sleeper to the Glenshee resort in time for first lift.

Sounds like a non-starter in terms of the unpredictability of the Scottish skiing season - I'd suggest that the volumes of skiers in southern England who'd choose to risk a trip to ski in Scotland instead of the (significantly more reliable) Alps would be way too low to fill such a service viably! However, this seems firmly in 'speculative ideas' board territory anyway...

 

[BRX]

Is it beyond the wit of man to have a summer and winter service? I have take the Cally to Inverness in Summer using my priv and it was completely full. If it’s not going to be completely full all year round but would be for a large chunk of the year then surely the answer is invest in some new (non-CAF) rolling stock and run more trains in summer but fewer in winter and have a rotation plan for the coaches to ensure even wear and tear.

If one will allow me to bust out the crayons to make some marketing materials you could actually still use the new stock in winter if you marketed a night ski train for the resorts in Scotland. Aviemore would be the obvious choice, and you could simply run the train up to Inverness afterwards for turnaround (in service or ECS), but a service to Perth or Dundee would also have potential if you could work out a deal with those enterprising chaps at Ember Bus to have a dedicated (electric) coach transfer from the sleeper to the Glenshee resort in time for first lift.

If you want lots of crayons, then run the spare train once or twice a week to Bourg-Saint-Maurice in France, which is just about the only place you could do this without waking everyone up at Lille, as it has passport and customs facilities for Eurostar, but that is a lot of crayons.

They do reduce the train length a bit in winter, allows them to take some coaches out of service for maintenance I think.

There's no way a ski train to Scotland would work - unless people could rely on being able to book just a couple of days in advance after looking at the forecast. And most of the time it would be empty because there's no skiiing.