Caledonian Sleeper

[styles]

Realistically though hardly anyone does 9am meetings for people who are travelling a long way. 10:30 would get you there on day trains from most of the UK south of and including the Central Belt (the first day train to London from Edinburgh is slightly later than I thought it was), and most people will be reasonable in response to what is a very reasonable request or not even make the unreasonable request for a 9am meeting for someone with a four hour journey to start with!

If of course you're north of the Central Belt things are different, but most people aren't. That to be fair is why I've always felt the Highlander much more secure in the face of stuff like HS2 and electric aviation than the Lowlander. Like the Night Riviera, the Lowlander is only just a long enough journey to justify a Sleeper.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2026 ==



I think I've had 8am meetings probably single figures numbers of times in my whole career. Because most London based office workers commute, nobody likes getting in that early (and those that do tend to have a coffee and maybe breakfast in the office before wanting to have meetings). The culture is not like New York.

I was stretching it with 8am meetings, but just demonstrating the additional opportunities it opens really. Also if your meeting isn't central London and you need to travel out, it opens that up.

For client on-site days I personally prefer to get on site for 9am to get a full day out of it. Sure if I'm organising a conference with people coming from all over, I'm going for a 10am start, but I think there's plenty who consider CS for work or business travel. If the last few Transport Focus quarterly reports are representative of the overall passenger demographics, around 15% of CS journeys are for 'work/business'.

They have a fairly high occupancy rate, so there's clearly demand even at the current price point.

I just wish we had a cheaper sibling service.

 

[35B]

Anyone who does that for someone they know is travelling a long way is just rude, to be honest, and I would probably give them (were they colleagues rather than a customer) a very terse response to the suggestion of it to be honest.

my response would be to book 6pm-7pm meetings with them and see if they liked that

They tend to be the types of colleagues who don't notice travel, ignore time zones, and assume availability for late evening meetings too. And 6-7 is anti-social here, and downright cruel when working with India.

 

[Jimini]

They tend to be the types of colleagues who don't notice travel, ignore time zones, and assume availability for late evening meetings too. And 6-7 is anti-social here, and downright cruel when working with India.

Yep, it's always the APAC guys who suffer here as well, particularly when someone in NYC decides that they want an lunchtime / afternoon meeting.

 

[800002]

For these reasons I genuinely think Caledonian Sleeper only make these sort of amendments to the schedule to avoid paying out

This is the only reason to fudge the schedules.
The whole industry did it back pre-DfT oversight / micromanagement with leaf fall timetables.

Notice how they were unable to do it to the Inverness (would have needed to reinput the entire schedule. (Arrived 65 late, fortunately for those passengers)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L11881/2026-02-15/detailed#allox_id=1


Indications are 1Y11 was in systems on the 15th, so a pre-midnight VSTP, and not after 0200 on Monday morning.
Believe they wouldn't have been able to do that, as the passenger timetable is locked down effectively at 02.59 each day (for performance and accounting purposes) so those folk probably would have been in the same position as the Inverness folk.

 

[VT 390]

Notice how they were unable to do it to the Inverness (would have needed to reinput the entire schedule. (Arrived 65 late, fortunately for those passengers)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L11881/2026-02-15/detailed#allox_id=1

I am sure I have seen all portions (Aberdeen, Inverness, Fort William) of the sleeper be retimed for the final station only in past instances of this occurring. So for this particular case its interesting they did not retime the Inverness, unless they were only predicting a significant (30+ minute) delay on the Fort William portion.

 

[Bikeman78]

I've used it for work with clients in London. When considering the alternatives, they are basically:

1. Go the night before on day time trains and stay in a hotel. The cost of this ends up pretty much the same and involves more time away from home.
2. Fly. But to get to central London for a 9am meeting, this usually means London City Airport, which brings the cost up. Stansted is possible but end-to-end it can be a bit tight on timings. There's also the environmental consideration. I'm sure the low loadings the Sleeper facilitates means it isn't the best, but it'll still be much better than flying.

The CS from Edinburgh gets to Euston at 0715 (actually usually a lot earlier - today was 0620!); that's time to chill on the train and plenty of time to get to a 9am or even 8am meeting.

I think you must sleep a lot better than me. The beds are comfy but I find that there are a lot of annoying squeaks and rattles. I've done a few runs in the past year, and every berth had a different rattle. Prior to that, my previous run was about 15 years ago. I'm not sure if I just slept a lot better then (I'd have been about 30 at the time) or whether the mark 3 were less irritating. I plan to have a go on the Penzance sleeper to compare. The lack of sleep isn't a problem when heading out for a bashing trip, but I wouldn't want to go to work off the sleeper.

 

[Falcon1200]

the Scottish Government, who subsidise the service to a massive degree

Or rather, the Scottish taxpayer subsidises the service, ie me (partially)!

It would be interesting to know if late notice changes like this used to occur to the same extent before the sleeper came under Scottish Government ownership in 2023.

I don't recall this being done when Scotrail had the Sleepers.

 

[35B]

Or rather, the Scottish taxpayer subsidises the service, ie me (partially)!

If we consider the overall funding of the Scottish government, I suggest @D6130 put it better - the taxes come from across the UK, not just Scotland

 

[enginedin]

the taxes come from across the UK, not just Scotland

true, but Scotland sets its own income rates - it's designed so that people below the (I think, median) salary pay a little less than they would in England, but those on higher pay more - I don't think it's neutral, so the Scottish Government have a bit of surplus. In that regard, it is "Scottish" taxpayers who can claim that they are subsidising the service

 

[Falcon1200]

the taxes come from across the UK, not just Scotland

To which I would counter that I pay more income tax than I would outside Scotland! But Scottish/UK finance and taxation is a rabbit hole, and diversion, we probably don't want to get into....

 

[driverd]

This is the only reason to fudge the schedules.
The whole industry did it back pre-DfT oversight / micromanagement with leaf fall timetables.

Notice how they were unable to do it to the Inverness (would have needed to reinput the entire schedule. (Arrived 65 late, fortunately for those passengers)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L11881/2026-02-15/detailed#allox_id=1


Indications are 1Y11 was in systems on the 15th, so a pre-midnight VSTP, and not after 0200 on Monday morning.
Believe they wouldn't have been able to do that, as the passenger timetable is locked down effectively at 02.59 each day (for performance and accounting purposes) so those folk probably would have been in the same position as the Inverness folk.

Just to point out - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in a previous post (or maybe it was on the news), that re-timing a train ultra-last minute doesn't wash as far as consumer rights are concerned, and this wouldn't negate compensation rules?

 

[styles]

I think that's a fair assessment.

I used it on two occasions, one Friday night run to Edinburgh where we had to meet family on the Saturday and I was finishing my shift in central London at 9pm. Admittedly in the seats and not the best night's sleep. But I still held a railcard and paid less than £50 at two weeks notice.

Yes the seats are a bargain... if you're somebody who can sleep sat upright! I sleep like a baby as long as I can lie down, ideally on my side but back mostly works too. I've slept in mountaineering huts where the "bed" is just a plank of wood, and I've been fine with just a sleeping bag.

Get me on a plane/train/bus with only an upright seat though - nae chance.

It's part of the reason I can't stand coach journeys, as my use case for them is usually making overnight journeys when trains aren't running, and I just don't sleep much on them no matter how tired. To the point that I'd rather just drive for 6+ hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2026 ==

I think you must sleep a lot better than me. The beds are comfy but I find that there are a lot of annoying squeaks and rattles. I've done a few runs in the past year, and every berth had a different rattle. Prior to that, my previous run was about 15 years ago. I'm not sure if I just slept a lot better then (I'd have been about 30 at the time) or whether the mark 3 were less irritating. I plan to have a go on the Penzance sleeper to compare. The lack of sleep isn't a problem when heading out for a bashing trip, but I wouldn't want to go to work off the sleeper.

It's a personal preference really. I just sleep well anywhere I can lie down. I am easily woken by things I know I need to pay attention to like crying babies or the dog whining, or the front door being tried; but somehow I sleep fine through 'everyday noise'. Maybe spending a few years living in central London did it for me, and having always lived near a railway line!

 

[nilvaj395]

Indeed.

I get the argument of keeping passengers informed about amendments and up to date arrival times and the like.

But retiming it to 13:00, especially in the way they've done it, is blatantly taking the piss.

I have the opinion that it also makes the idea of delay repay laughable. What's the point of having it in existence to be a motivator to reduce delays when you can retime the service to avoid it? What sort of confidence or trust does that put in consumers that any delays will actually be fairly paid out by any TOC, not just CS.

It's an insult to customers for them to arrive 2 or 3 hours late and then be told that the company has blatantly changed the timetable on purpose so that they don't have to pay back part of the extortionate cost the customer has paid.

And in regard to the passenger information aspect, this should already be done normally via the Darwin data showing delays or is there another reason as to why they would want to change the timetable itself?.I don't think there's little need to change the actual timetable itself for any other reason in my view other than to avoid paying out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2026 ==

Just to point out - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in a previous post (or maybe it was on the news), that re-timing a train ultra-last minute doesn't wash as far as consumer rights are concerned, and this wouldn't negate compensation rules?

I would hope so. The customer was sold the ticket with the itinerary that says 10:00 arrival, so re-timing it last minute shouldn't affect things. I'm inclined to think that to prove such however, the customer would have to send in proof of the delay of sorts as according to the 'system', the train arrived 133 minutes early.

 

[RGM654]

Apropos the choice between the Sleeper and other options: in most Augusts I travel from my home in London to Edinburgh for a few days of the Fringe. Given the high cost of accommodation in Edinburgh during the festival season, I try to fit in a lot of shows in a limited number of days. For some years I mostly travelled both ways on the Sleeper. Then I decided I could save money and get a better night's sleep by travelling out in the middle of the day. With the majority of shows being in the afternoons and evenings, I could still fit in the morning shows of interest on other days. I still used the sleeper for my journey south. Then, after I got home last year, I realised that, another year, I could have most of a day for shows, leave Waverley Station early in the evening on a train to Kings Cross, and be in my own bed that night, all for a cheaper fare than the sleeper. That seems preferable to seeing only one or two more shows and having a fairly short night in a bunk.

 

[VT 390]

I would hope so. The customer was sold the ticket with the itinerary that says 10:00 arrival, so re-timing it last minute shouldn't affect things. I'm inclined to think that to prove such however, the customer would have to send in proof of the delay of sorts as according to the 'system', the train arrived 133 minutes early.

Given that a reservation is mandatory on the sleeper, even in the seats, all passengers will have some form of original booking confirmation with the timings at the time of booking.
This should be evidence of a delay against the original booked itinerary, however getting Caledonian Sleeper to pay based off just this would likely be challenging.

 

[Bald Rick]

Re this retiming, or indeed any similar late notice retiming of the sleeper st destination, has anyone on this thread actually been on the CS when this has happened, and what was the result in terms of delay repay?

I'm sure the low loadings the Sleeper facilitates means it isn't the best, but it'll still be much better than flying.

I did the calcs once for the Highlander. There’s not much in it - the emissions per passenger due to the diesel used north of Edinburgh on the Aberdeen / Inverness portions is not dissimilar to the emissions per passenger for a flight from London - Inverness / Aberdeen. And that assumes the indirect emissions of the electric haul south of Edinburgh is zero, which it isn’t.

I think I've had 8am meetings probably single figures numbers of times in my whole career. Because most London based office workers commute, nobody likes getting in that early (and those that do tend to have a coffee and maybe breakfast in the office before wanting to have meetings). The culture is not like New York.

That depends what industry you’re in. If you’re in ‘the City’, being in for 0700/0730 is quite normal and 0800 meetings similar. If you’re in a more creative industry or retail (often in the west end), then rocking up after 0900 seems quite acceptable, and later meetings the norm.

my response would be to book 6pm-7pm meetings with them and see if they liked that

And if you’re in the rail industry, meetings at 0800 and 1800 are not at all unusual. But that’s because we are here to serve

In my experience in the rail industry, where long distance travel is required 0900 starts are routine; most will be up early and travel on the day where possible (I certainly do) but travel day before and an overnight is not uncommon, and the Sleeper is sometimes used for trips north to Scotland (butrarely coming back).

 

[MrJeeves]

Re this retiming, or indeed any similar late notice retiming of the sleeper st destination, has anyone on this thread actually been on the CS when this has happened, and what was the result in terms of delay repay?

There was a case related to it in the past where a forum member was on board with a ticket to Fort William, but actually alighted at Spean Bridge.

Caledonian Sleeper not only used the retiming at Fort William as an excuse to reject the claim, but also stated that delay repay is calculated against the journey to the destination on the ticket rather than the passenger's journey, which is not the case.

They doubled down when challenged, stating that "although break of journey is permitted with your ticket type, delay repay is only compensable for the journey on your ticket."

They then offered the money owed as a "goodwill gesture" after being taken to the Rail Ombudsman.

Caledonian Sleeper Delay Repay

I am surprised at the reasons provided by Caledonian Sleeper for rejecting a recent Delay Repay claim. Date of travel: 30/12/2024 From: Dumbarton Central (DBC) To: Spean Bridge (SBR) Planned service: 06:17 Caledonian Sleeper Service to Fort William (FTW) Scheduled arrival time: 09:38 Actual...

www.railforums.co.uk

"Unfortunately", I don't think anyone has posted on the forum after both (a) travelling to the terminus on the sleeper, and (b) having delay repay compensation rejected.

 

[nilvaj395]

Given that a reservation is mandatory on the sleeper, even in the seats, all passengers will have some form of original booking confirmation with the timings at the time of booking.
This should be evidence of a delay against the original booked itinerary, however getting Caledonian Sleeper to pay based off just this would likely be challenging.

That was exactly my thoughts, they would be using the system in this instance to claim otherwise, which is just sketchy.

 

[H F Stephens]

Re this retiming, or indeed any similar late notice retiming of the sleeper st destination, has anyone on this thread actually been on the CS when this has happened, and what was the result in terms of delay repay?

Twice.

Delay Repay claimed and paid in full on one occasion.

On the other, if I recall correctly, CS emailed to apologise for the delay vs the originally-booked arrival time and advise that compensation would be credited to the original payment method before I’d had chance to claim.

Both occasions Highlander arriving Fort William with amended schedule loaded the previous evening.

Others’ experiences may of course be different.

 

[GLC]

You should just be able to have breakfast in the club car - it’s not usually that busy, a surprising (to me) number of people opt for breakfast in their rooms, so there’s almost always space in the club car. It’s the best way of enjoying the scenery. You can’t usually go through to the seated coach.

Especially surprising given that the tables have been removed from the room!

 

[styles]

I did the calcs once for the Highlander. There’s not much in it - the emissions per passenger due to the diesel used north of Edinburgh on the Aberdeen / Inverness portions is not dissimilar to the emissions per passenger for a flight from London - Inverness / Aberdeen. And that assumes the indirect emissions of the electric haul south of Edinburgh is zero, which it isn’t.

Which? Looked into this and concluded that London to Aberdeen was about half the CO2 emissions by CS than by flying.

Sleeper trains vs planes: Which is cheaper? - Which?

Families travelling by rail can reduce their holiday bill as well as their carbon footprint

www.which.co.uk

Even if they're slightly out, I think I trust them that it is generally better.

CS have a page on their website which claims even more impressive figures.

Sustainability

Environment | Caledonian Sleeper. View information on our carbon emissions and compare your Caledonian Sleeper journey with other forms of transport.

www.sleeper.scot

For some journeys it won't even be possible to compare though, like Fort William to London or Stirling to Crewe, there's no flights between the two.

 

[Bald Rick]

For some journeys it won't even be possible to compare though, like Fort William to London or Stirling to Crewe, there's no flights between the two.

Well you could hire a helicopter

 

[styles]

Well you could hire a helicopter

There is now a Wick to Aberdeen public service flight with a scope to extent it to include Wick to Edinburgh. That would prove handy

 

[fraser158]

Especially surprising given that the tables have been removed from the room!

They’ve still not been put back?

 

[Bald Rick]

Which? Looked into this and concluded that London to Aberdeen was about half the CO2 emissions by CS than by flying.

Sleeper trains vs planes: Which is cheaper? - Which?

Families travelling by rail can reduce their holiday bill as well as their carbon footprint

www.which.co.uk

Even if they're slightly out, I think I trust them that it is generally better.

Those which numbers look suspiciously average for trains between Scotland and London, and not sleeper specific.

What follows is something I’ve done before, so forgive me for repeating myself and/or if the numbers are different this time.


An A320neo flying Luton to Inverness will burn about 3.5t of Kerosene from engines start up to engines shut down, producing around 8,000kg of CO2. On typical easyjet load factors that is split between around 170 passengers, so 47kg each.

The sleeper between Inverness and Edinburgh will burn, at an educated guess, around 500 gallons of diesel across both locos during the diagrammed duty (including any light loco runs, running round, shunting, trips to the sidings, and idling awaiting movement). That seems a lot of diesel but remember it is hauling a lot of train (including over 200t of loco!) away from multiple stops, and up two big climbs (plus a tiddler) which can’t be recovered in braking, plus have a big ‘hotel load’. 500 gallons of diesel is 5,765kg of CO2. On typical load factors on the Inverness portion of the sleeper, that is split between about 75 people in beds, plus another 20-30 in the seats. That’s 58kg each.

But if you take the view that one of the 8 coaches is carrying a quarter of the people, and weight the beds accordingly, that 58kg goes up to 67kg per passenger, and reduces the seats contribution to 29kg per passenger.

Of course there’s lots of assumptions in there, not least fuel consumption of a 66+73 combo, but it does seem plausible. And it doesn’t count the carbon emissions of the electric leg south of Edinburgh, which will be about another 1000kg CO2 based on average grid emissions, albeit split over more passengers for the complete train. Nor does it allow for shorter formations as and when they run.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

The sleeper between Inverness and Edinburgh will burn, at an educated guess, around 500 gallons of diesel across both locos during the diagrammed duty (including any light loco runs, running round, shunting, trips to the sidings, and idling awaiting movement). That seems a lot of diesel but remember it is hauling a lot of train (including over 200t of loco!) away from multiple stops, and up two big climbs (plus a tiddler) which can’t be recovered in braking, plus have a big ‘hotel load’. 500 gallons of diesel is 5,765kg of CO2. On typical load factors on the Inverness portion of the sleeper, that is split between about 75 people in beds, plus another 20-30 in the seats. That’s 58kg each.

But if you take the view that one of the 8 coaches is carrying a quarter of the people, and weight the beds accordingly, that 58kg goes up to 67kg per passenger, and reduces the seats contribution to 29kg per passenger.

Of course there’s lots of assumptions in there, not least fuel consumption of a 66+73 combo, but it does seem plausible. And it doesn’t count the carbon emissions of the electric leg south of Edinburgh, which will be about another 1000kg CO2 based on average grid emissions, albeit split over more passengers for the complete train. Nor does it allow for shorter formations as and when they run.

Thanks for sharing this. I suggest there's also the question of the CO2 emitted in building the coaches - aluminium being notoriously energy-expensive to produce - compounded by the fact that sleeper coaches can only be used once in every 24h, whereas day coaches might do two or three similar journeys carrying many more people.

 

[MrJeeves]

They’ve still not been put back?

They certainly hadn't been two weeks ago.

 

[enginedin]

An A320neo flying Luton to Inverness will burn about 3.5t of Kerosene from engines start up to engines shut down, producing around 8,000kg of CO2. On typical easyjet load factors that is split between around 170 passengers, so 47kg each.

I know the engines in the neo range are meant to be a bit more efficient, but these numbers seem a bit low compared to the research that the BBC highlighted a few years ago:

Climate change: Should you fly, drive or take the train?

How should you travel to reduce your carbon footprint?

www.bbc.co.uk

You've got 47 kg per passenger, for a 694 km flight -> 70 g / passenger km, which is half of what the research shows is emitted in domestic flights, and that's before the secondary emissions are included, which the train won't have any of.

Not saying you're wrong, but if you had any equivalent research to give some backing to your numbers I'd be interested in seeing it. I totally accept that the neo engines might have made a massive jump in efficiency

 

[ABB125]

I travelled from Dundee to Birmingham on Sunday evening in the seats. A few comments:

• The coach I was in was around half full arriving at Edinburgh, but once the Fort William passengers had boarded it was completely full
• One other seated passenger alighted at Birmingham, I didn't notice if any cabin passengers alighted
• With 2x class 73s on the front and 5 coaches, acceleration from stops was quite good, better than the class 170 I was on to get to Dundee
• Ride quality was appalling, far worse than I recall from previous trips. This was sat roughly in the middle of the coach. Every seated overnight I've subjected myself to in Europe, over a mix of multiple units, dedicated sleeper coaches, and standard day coaches that happen to be used for sleeper trains, has had a better ride
• The seats are not very comfortable for me, particularly the lack of lumbar support. Obviously this varies from person to person though
• The large luggage storage racks (with roller doors?) are incredibly noisy, especially when a coachload of Fort William passengers get on and start stacking their luggage!
• The onboard temperature was too cold. This is something I've noticed before. Everyone was wearing several layers, some including proper warm outdoor jackets. At times I was shivering
• The air conditioning is incredibly noisy. Surely it's not difficult to turn the air flow down a bit to reduce noise? When the train supply was turned off during the shunting at Edinburgh it was blissfully quiet. Except for...
• At Edinburgh they appeared to be doing some (very loud) tests for the speakers on the platforms. Good luck sleeping through that!
• The shunting on this particular occasion was... Not gentle. The Inverness portion announced its arrival with the biggest jolt I've ever had during any shunting move - and I was expecting it. I dread to think what "normal" passengers thought had happened...

 

[Morayshire]

Today's (Wed 18th Feb) northbound Aberdeen portion has 37403 in charge