mathstrains19
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Absolutely, but that applies to all formations
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It has generally been lower numbered 66s which have operated the Inverness sleeper, but that may be a function of how GBRf generally manage them. It seems unlikely that a 66/6 will appear.
It isn't unknown for the 1S25 / 1M16 engine to do the Glasgow Central drag move if necessary, hence the paths across from Edinburgh to Glasgow.
43096
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During the day, that would be the loco off the down Highland sleeper which is stabled before working the following night's up Highland sleeper.
Usually the Highlander is worked by the 92 that stables in the Edinburgh Waverley Klondike Siding (opposite platform 7), whilst what will become "loco 4" runs light after dragging the southbound Glasgow portion into Glasgow Central to Waverley - and reverse in the morning (to become loco 4). Though this doesn't always happen.
Yes, ECS can run in the early hours between Waverley and Polmadie. Typically this is used when the Fort William seated and club cars need to head across to Polmadie for maintenance.
The Edinburgh portion 92 is planned to stable overnight in Carstairs.
So on a typical night, starting with your numbering scheme:
Yes, ECS can run in the early hours between Waverley and Polmadie. Typically this is used when the Fort William seated and club cars need to head across to Polmadie for maintenance.
The Edinburgh portion 92 is planned to stable overnight in Carstairs.
So on a typical night, starting with your numbering scheme:
- Wembley -> Euston (Highlander ECS), Euston -> Glasgow, Glasgow -> Polmadie (ECS, on rear)
- Wembley -> Euston (Highlander ECS, on rear), Euston -> Edinburgh (Highlander), -> Klondike Siding
- Wembley -> Euston (Lowlander ECS) evening, Euston -> Wembley (Lowlander ECS) morning
- Polmadie -> Glasgow (ECS), Glasgow -> Edinburgh (light). Take ECS to Polmadie if required. Reverse in morning
- Polmadie -> Edinburgh (Lowlander ECS), run round, Edinburgh -> Carstairs. Reverse in morning
- Reverse of Loco 1
- Reverse of Loco 2
BRX
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If they used 4 DVT type vehicles, one on the south end of each full 8 16 coach set, they would need 2 fewer 92s and could transport 4 extra coachloads of passengers each night, is that right?
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Lowlander
london004
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Yeah, basically with DVTs you’d need fewer 92s and could slot in more passenger coaches.
43096
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No, the loco stabled at Edinburgh is off the Highland sleeper, unless workings have changed. The loco off the Edinburgh portion of the Lowlander used to run round the stock and take it ECS to Polmadie.
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norbitonflyer
Established Member
Possibly. The platform limitations are mainly at the termini, (Glasgow central, Inverness, Fort William and Euston) as distinct from through stations like Waverley. If a Driving trailer is replacing a class 92, it wouldn't affect the length of the train in the terminus. But at Inverness and Fort William the train is reversed in/out of the platform, with no loco at the front of the shunt to/from the sidings, so the DVT would be an extra vehicle to fit in the platform. A while since I've been to FW, but a 66+73 combo+8 sleepers take up most of the length of the platfom at Inverness.
The main constraint would be at Euston, where two locos plus 16 sleepers only just fit. If you add a driving trailer to both rakes (as you would have to, since the rakes are rotated, and in any case it is the leading set that goes to Glasgow so you need a driving trailer at theb rear of the front set) that's 18 sleepers plus one loco - ie one vehicle longer.
And unless you are going to operate in push-pull formation in passenger service, you will need a driving trailer at each end of each rake, to allow ECS working at both Glasgow and Euston.
By the way, it wouldn't be a DVT if it was carrying apssengers, as the V stands for van. Maybe a DBSLE? Or a DBSO if its the seated coach?
BRX
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In my post I wrote 1 DVT per 8 coach set, but I meant each 16 coach set. So at Euston it would simply sit at the buffers where one of the 92s currently sits.
norbitonflyer
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The 92 arrives in Edinburgh from Euston with all three sets, and spends the day there if I have understood 43096, returning to Euston the following night with the same set
BRX
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I had Carstairs station on the wrong leg of the triangle in my mind. So, the DVT would have to go on the north end of the 16 coach rake.
Operating push-pull in passenger service would be part of the plan.
Pretty sure there's plenty of space at Inverness for an extra vehicle. The sleeper formation used to be longer than it is now.
(At Inverness & Edinburgh it would also avoid the faff of swapping the 66&73 around in each direction, although I guess in theory that's just a temporary set-up.)
So hypothetically with a purpose built vehicle you could add a coach that is some form of driving trailer but my word would that be making things complicated, especially if you wanted to sell the seats. This is because the stock is rotated each night. Ie: what goes Edinburgh one night goes to Glasgow next time, what goes to Inverness then goes to Aberdeen/Fort William. If it were one DT per 16 coaches, you'd have essentially two formations coupled, one 8 car and one 9 car, rather than the current universal 8 car formations. Its not insurmountable operationally, but would add a new challenge.
Where I suspect the bigger stumbling block is, however, is the economics of it. Would another 6 or so rooms cover the cost? As there isnt much other work for 92s, I suspect they're not on an especially expensive lease either. So I can't imagine there is much incentive to replace them.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
It would also reduce the amount of coupling and uncoupling, and light engine movements, needed - all of which requires manpower at unsocial hours
If there was no other work for the mark 5 driving trailers ex Transpennine, it might not cost too much, especially if they were used as seating cars. There are 14, which are all earmarked for Chiltern but are replacing only six Mark 3 rakes.
mathstrains19
Member
I believe that with the Mk5's, the Glasgow and the Aberdeen/Fort William share the same sets, and the Edinburgh and the Inverness portions share the same sets. The Glasgow portion is advertised as having 2 accessible coaches, which would be required for the Aberdeen/Fort William portion.
In the past with the Mk3's, I believe that yes they did swap around more - the lowlander that arrived into Edinburgh one morning would then form the lowlander from Glasgow that night.
Thanks for this excellent summary, and also thanks for all the other replies.
BRX
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I think the mk3s were rotated around to make sure each set went to Inverness at some point, because that's where they were maintained, is that right?
Is that now replaced with a need to pass through polmadie at some point?
If the swapping around of 8 coach sets happens at wembley then it doesn't seem like it would need to be much more complicated than whatever happens now. Any scenario where the DVT needed to be decoupled would be one where a 92 would have to be decoupled at present. Of course the difference would be that the DVT obviously couldn't move under its own power.
Is that now replaced with a need to pass through polmadie at some point?
If the swapping around of 8 coach sets happens at wembley then it doesn't seem like it would need to be much more complicated than whatever happens now. Any scenario where the DVT needed to be decoupled would be one where a 92 would have to be decoupled at present. Of course the difference would be that the DVT obviously couldn't move under its own power.
mathstrains19
Member
In the past they were maintained at Inverness so yes, every 8 coach set had to end up on an Inverness run regularly. As they are now maintained at Polmadie, they only need to ensure each 8 coach set swaps between the highlander and the lowlander regularly, as both the Edinburgh and Glasgow portions go to Polmadie during the day. I believe they achieve this by having an arriving highlander at Wembley form a lowlander that evening, and vice versa.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
As they did in Mark 3 days. The the Highlander ended up in reverse formation (Inverness at the London end going north, Scotland end going south, if I recall correctly) The Edinburgh portion was at the rear in both directions, but the sets were swapped at Polmadie during the day (giving more time for servicing, as each set only had to make the ECS move once) so what had been the Edinburgh portion (at the London end) northbound became the Glasgow portion (also at the Londion end) southbound the next night.
With the Mark 5s, because the Aberdeen / FW portion has to have an accessible coach for each destination, and the Inverness does not, there are two different types of rake. Both rotate between Highland and Lowland, but they do not rotate through all four (well, five) destinations. Inverness shares with Edinburgh, Aberdeen/FW with Glasgow - I understand it is this way round because there is slightly higher demand on the Edinburgh portion than the Glasgow.
CumbrianSausag
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Southbound Fort William portion not left tonight. Lineside fire I'm told.
Wonder what will happen with the Northbound tomorrow. I'm meant to be on it!
Aaaargh.
Wonder what will happen with the Northbound tomorrow. I'm meant to be on it!
Aaaargh.
Location of lineside fire - Banavie.
scotraildriver
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Banavie signal box evacuated due to a large fire at the industrial estate across the road and a large exclusion zone set up Looks like it may be protracted. Scotrail has had trains stuck at Crianlarich and Taynuilt since around 18.30.
The sleeper website is silent on the matter. Have they contacted you directly?
I expect that the Fort William sleeper cars diverted to Aberdeen this morning. With road transport provided from Edinburgh? The southbound will have run short last night. Do they have spare sleeper cars at Wembley? What will happen to the southbound Fort William portion when it arrives at Edinburgh tonight, if the portion from Aberdeen is already eight cars?
norbitonflyer
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If normal stock rotation is kept, it would mean the northbound Glasgow will be two sleepers short, but if the FW happens they'll also have to get the seating and club cars down from FW to Edinburgh in time to meet it.
RTT says the northbound FW didn't happen last night either, presumably because there was no club car avaialble at Edinburgh, but I don't know where the FW sleeper coaches ended up. RTT says the full 16 cars left Euston, and I can't see any extra ECS movements.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
They usually give updates at about 2pm
The Fort William portion has four sleepers at the moment. During the winter months more go to Aberdeen and fewer to Fort William. The southbound from Fort William didn't run last night. The line was already closed. So it's safe to assume that the locos and stock never moved. The 0548 from Queen Street was still showing delayed on the screens at 0730 this morning but RTT says cancelled.
norbitonflyer
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CS website now showing only 2 sleepers instead of 6 to Glasgow tonight - presumably the missing four are the ones that never left FW last night. I guess they will form the southbound FW portion tonight instead. The lounge and seating cars will be needed in edinburgh anyway, to meet the northbound portion.
It is also not obvious where the ones that were supposed to go to FW last night ended up. They are presumably not still in London, because if they were they could have been used to make up the numbers on the Glasgow train
It is also not obvious where the ones that were supposed to go to FW last night ended up. They are presumably not still in London, because if they were they could have been used to make up the numbers on the Glasgow train
My guess is that they are in Aberdeen. I expect that four sleepers will use the 5D24 path tomorrow morning from Edinburgh to Polmadie which will get everything back in the right place.
Catching the sleeper from Aberdeen in a few weeks for the first time in a long time. Used to do it every year or two for a while, then kids got in the way!
This time my eldest is coming with me and is very excited about the prospect of a sleeper train. It’s my first time on the new rolling stock (yep it’s been that long). I notice there is still the same awkward wording about “priority” access to the club car. What’s the deal with this in reality? We are in a classic room and the wording says we are allowed in “after departure”. Is this just to give the club rooms a chance to get there first? Or is it just not policed the same as it used to be?
This time my eldest is coming with me and is very excited about the prospect of a sleeper train. It’s my first time on the new rolling stock (yep it’s been that long). I notice there is still the same awkward wording about “priority” access to the club car. What’s the deal with this in reality? We are in a classic room and the wording says we are allowed in “after departure”. Is this just to give the club rooms a chance to get there first? Or is it just not policed the same as it used to be?