Caledonian Sleeper

[D6130]

And I guess by the time you schedule that it would have been quicker to go around Fife circle?

Probably!

 

[JamieL]

Also famous for Castlecary Arches, where railway lines cross the motorway supported by an impressive viaduct. Worth checking out if you're interested in that type of industrial revolution thing.
I notice there's a quaint Castle Cary town and station in England too but its associated bridges seem rather less obtrusive.

It is also famous as the railway runs straight through the remains of Castlecary Roman Fort- a major site on the Antonine Wall.

 

[GordonT]

Would you also need to get someone to the site to do all the coupling/uncoupling or are drivers able to do that themselves in such situations?

And could such a lavish performance be enacted with no impact upon other services actually booked to pass through Dalmeny?

 

[Falcon1200]

You would have to run both locos round separately.

and I guess by the time you schedule that it would have been quicker to go around Fife circle?

Agree, although running round was possible, if awkward!

Would you also need to get someone to the site to do all the coupling/uncoupling

The trains have Guards.

And could such a lavish performance be enacted with no impact upon other services actually booked to pass through Dalmeny?

As opposed to the impact on other services from traversing the Fife Circle and crossing the Forth Bridge twice?

 

[ABB125]

Regarding running round, is there any reason why the class 73 couldn't supply ETS from the back of the train, so only the class 66 would need to run round?

 

[JonathanH]

Regarding running round, is there any reason why the class 73 couldn't supply ETS from the back of the train, so only the class 66 would need to run round?

I can't imagine an obvious problem with a 73 supplying ETS from the back, but the 66 cant couple to the coaches.

 

[JModulo]

70817 worked the Aberdeen portion last night (12/09/25) south to Edinburgh after 73970 failed at Carnoustie.

 

[norbitonflyer]

70817 worked the Aberdeen portion last night (12/09/25) south to Edinburgh after 73970 failed at Carnoustie.

That raises all sorts of questions

Is that the first recorded use of a Class 70 on a scheduled passenger service?

Can a class 70 run the ETS, or was the 73 still able to do that?

The Aberdeen portion arrived in Edinburgh at 0500, by which time RTT shows the rest of the southbound train was already at Warrington. What happened to the seated passengers on the southbound Fort William portion, who would normally transfer to the Aberdeen portion at Edinburgh?

By the time the Aberdeen arrived, the northbound portions had all left Edinburgh, so it wouldn't have been possible to send the FW lounge car and seating car south, and use the incoming Aberdeen cars on the FW northbound instead. So did all twelve coachloads (Inverness and FW) have to use the Inverness lounge car?

 

[Bill57p9]

Can a class 70 run the ETS, or was the 73 still able to do that?

Negative: Class 70s do not have any ETS capability. Further they are only fitted with chain link couplers, therefore the 73/9 would be required as a physical translator to the Dellner of the Mk5s even if dead in tow.

By the time the Aberdeen arrived, the northbound portions had all left Edinburgh, so it wouldn't have been possible to send the FW lounge car and seating car south, and use the incoming Aberdeen cars on the FW northbound instead. So did all twelve coachloads (Inverness and FW) have to use the Inverness lounge car?

RTT suggests that the Fort William sleeper coaches (only) were added to the Inverness portion, so a single lounge car and single seated car immediately next to the 92 at the south end of the train

 

[D1511]

That raises all sorts of questions

Is that the first recorded use of a Class 70 on a scheduled passenger service?

Can a class 70 run the ETS, or was the 73 still able to do that?

Nope, no ETH, and like the 66 it can't couple directly to the coaching stock, so the 73 does both......

Excuse my ignorance, but what sort of arrangement would have happened between GBRf and Colas to enable that to happen? Who picked up the phone to call who?

(Edit: @Bill57p9 answered your question just before me, but my question remains.....)

 

[GordonT]

That raises all sorts of questions

Also what would have been the fate of any intending pax from Dundee, Leuchars, Kirkcaldy and Inverkeithing?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Also what would have been the fate of any intending pax from Dundee, Leuchars, Kirkcaldy and Inverkeithing?

Taxi to Edinburgh, and take pot luck if there was any space?

 

[alistairlees]

They will all have been proactively contacted and assisted / given options. Caledonian Sleeper is very good at this.

 

[800001]

Nope, no ETH, and like the 66 it can't couple directly to the coaching stock, so the 73 does both......

Excuse my ignorance, but what sort of arrangement would have happened between GBRf and Colas to enable that to happen? Who picked up the phone to call who?

(Edit: @Bill57p9 answered your question just before me, but my question remains.....)

More often than not NR get involved and contact the operator of the nearest loco so that the line can be cleared as quickly as possible.

The relevant TOC will also often be making phone calls to 'hire' a loco and driver.

 

[Fundee on Tay]

Does anyone know if the traction for Sunday night’s Highland CS services might be affected by this?

 

[185143]

They will all have been proactively contacted and assisted / given options. Caledonian Sleeper is very good at this.

I've had the Highlander cancelled on me when boarding at Crewe once and recieved a phone call shortly after the decision to cancel the train had been made advising me of my options.

I'd arrived at Crewe very early and Virgin had already sent me on my way, but obviously they weren't to know that. I assume they would have taxied me to Preston to join the Lowlander there, that's what the Virgin station staff told me to do.

They were excellent on the phone and no doubt have had plenty of practice since. Explained what had happened, gave me detailed arrival times and instructions and made sure I knew everything I needed to. That was my first experience of using the Sleeper and to say they did as much as they could to turn a truly dreadful experience into an all round positive one would be an understatement really.

 

[MrEd]

Does anyone know if the traction for Sunday night’s Highland CS services might be affected by this?

I wouldn’t have thought so, as the Aberdeen portion was worked north by 73966 this morning, reaching Aberdeen on time, and the Fort William and Aberdeen sections also ran as normal with 66+73 pairings. Unless one of these locos also fails, the Sunday night services should be as normal.

 

[MontyP]

Interesting first ever trip on the sleeper last night. Arrived at Euston to find that the Glasgow portion was going to Edinburgh (apparently they had emailed to explain but I had booked through my company's travel provider so obviously this didn't get passed on). And then a train alarm (smoke/fire I guess) went off in my carriage at 6am somewhere between Carstairs and Edinburgh (we were stationary at the time) which took 40 mins to turn off and reset. During which time all services in my carriage (power/water etc) were off except for the lights. And the doors to the next carriage were shut and couldn't be opened. Is this normal? I'd be worried if there had been an actual fire as I would think that evacuating to the next carriage is better than having to break a window to escape the train?

 

[trainbow]

Interesting first ever trip on the sleeper last night. Arrived at Euston to find that the Glasgow portion was going to Edinburgh (apparently they had emailed to explain but I had booked through my company's travel provider so obviously this didn't get passed on). And then a train alarm (smoke/fire I guess) went off in my carriage at 6am somewhere between Carstairs and Edinburgh (we were stationary at the time) which took 40 mins to turn off and reset. During which time all services in my carriage (power/water etc) were off except for the lights. And the doors to the next carriage were shut and couldn't be opened. Is this normal? I'd be worried if there had been an actual fire as I would think that evacuating to the next carriage is better than having to break a window to escape the train?

On modern rolling stock, during a fire alarm, doors often become one way. As it's unclear when an alarm is going off on a train exactly where the fire may be, this prevents people from accidentally going towards a fire, but allows people to escape. I'd hazard a guess that the fire alarm was activated in that adjacent coach, which is why you couldn't go through that door. (Unless you tried both ways, in which case, that's indeed a concern which I would raise).

Another fire precaution is that electric train supply is cut. On modern stock, automatically, but on older stock, the guard has to do it manually. This reduces electrical hazards, but crucially cuts the air conditioning to the train, so that smoke is not sucked into the coaches. Lighting will remain active for many hours from the coach's batteries.

Finally, you shouldn't have to break a window to escape a train, even if you can't go to the next coach, just pull the egress device on any door and slide open. (Only to be done under instruction from staff, or during a life-threatening emergency).

 

[MontyP]

On modern rolling stock, during a fire alarm, doors often become one way. As it's unclear when an alarm is going off on a train exactly where the fire may be, this prevents people from accidentally going towards a fire, but allows people to escape. I'd hazard a guess that the fire alarm was activated in that adjacent coach, which is why you couldn't go through that door. (Unless you tried both ways, in which case, that's indeed a concern which I would raise).

Another fire precaution is that electric train supply is cut. On modern stock, automatically, but on older stock, the guard has to do it manually. This reduces electrical hazards, but crucially cuts the air conditioning to the train, so that smoke is not sucked into the coaches. Lighting will remain active for many hours from the coach's batteries.

Finally, you shouldn't have to break a window to escape a train, even if you can't go to the next coach, just pull the egress device on any door and slide open. (Only to be done under instruction from staff, or during a life-threatening emergency).

That all makes sense, thanks!

 

[cb a1]

On modern rolling stock, during a fire alarm, doors often become one way. As it's unclear when an alarm is going off on a train exactly where the fire may be, this prevents people from accidentally going towards a fire, but allows people to escape. I'd hazard a guess that the fire alarm was activated in that adjacent coach, which is why you couldn't go through that door. (Unless you tried both ways, in which case, that's indeed a concern which I would raise).

Another fire precaution is that electric train supply is cut. On modern stock, automatically, but on older stock, the guard has to do it manually. This reduces electrical hazards, but crucially cuts the air conditioning to the train, so that smoke is not sucked into the coaches. Lighting will remain active for many hours from the coach's batteries.

Finally, you shouldn't have to break a window to escape a train, even if you can't go to the next coach, just pull the egress device on any door and slide open. (Only to be done under instruction from staff, or during a life-threatening emergency).

Thank you so much.

I love the sleeper and use it fairly regularly. My claustrophobia doesn't affect me in normal circumstances, but in situations where doors won't open and such like, I can get a bit panicky. I know it's irrational, but phobias aren't rationale.

Thus, that's both really interesting and helpful to know. When I understand what's happening and why it significantly reduces my anxiety and reduces the risk of me either doing something daft (like trying to break a window) or ending up say needing medical attention for a panic attack.

 

[driverd]

On modern rolling stock, during a fire alarm, doors often become one way. As it's unclear when an alarm is going off on a train exactly where the fire may be, this prevents people from accidentally going towards a fire, but allows people to escape. I'd hazard a guess that the fire alarm was activated in that adjacent coach, which is why you couldn't go through that door. (Unless you tried both ways, in which case, that's indeed a concern which I would raise).

I've never known this - could you give an example of some stock where this is the case?

How would, for example, staff or emergency services get through said door?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my suspicion would be that as the ETS was off at the time, the door probably just lost power and would need to be pulled apart?

 

[JModulo]

I've never known this - could you give an example of some stock where this is the case?

How would, for example, staff or emergency services get through said door?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my suspicion would be that as the ETS was off at the time, the door probably just lost power and would need to be pulled apart?

All that happens here is the power is cut to the door, so that you cant inadvertently press the button to enter the coach (giving an indication something might be amiss). You can still manually slide the doors apart, with ease, to exit said coach which the alarm is in or indeed to enter to assist. Its the way the system is designed.

 

[trainbow]

It’s definitely the case on the 80x fleet. The vestibule doors do not open automatically one-way, but I believe they can be released by a T-Key above the door, then slid open if necessary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2025 ==

I've never known this - could you give an example of some stock where this is the case?

How would, for example, staff or emergency services get through said door?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my suspicion would be that as the ETS was off at the time, the door probably just lost power and would need to be pulled apart?

 

[RiverDon]

I've never known this - could you give an example of some stock where this is the case?

Class 170 does this. From the traincrew manual:

If the smoke detector in the ceiling near the end cupboard operates it will isolate the gangway doors between the carriages in order to comply with fire regulations. The door sensors located above the gangway doors will allow people to exit the vehicle but will not allow access. Please bear this in mind if you need to re-enter the train with a hand held fire extinguisher.

 

[driverd]

Thanks all for the replies. I did once sign 170s and cannot remember this bit of information - thanks for the refresh!

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm trying to work out the class 92 workings for the sleepers. This is what I think happens. Corrections welcome.

At Euston, the Highland sleeper arrives from Wembley top and tailed by locos 1 and 2. Loco 1 is detached and train departs with loco 2. Loco 1 shunts out of the station and the stock for the Lowland sleeper arrives hauled by loco 3. Loco 3 detaches and loco 1 attaches to the north end and the train departs. Loco 3 runs light engine to Wembley.

Glasgow seems pretty straightforward. Loco 1 arrives from Euston and then loco 4 attaches to the rear and takes the train to Polmadie. I guess the formation remains the same during the day so the following night loco 1 will haul the ECS to Glasgow and loco 4 goes to Euston.

Edinburgh I'm less clear about. Loco 2 arrives with the Highland sleeper. There is a shunt schedule into a siding but there are also 0D24 and 5D24 paths to Polmadie. 5D24 ran this morning with two carriages. In the opposite direction there is a 0C16 from Glasgow and a shunt in Edinburgh.

Loco 5 arrives from Carstairs with the Edinburgh portion. It appears to run round and take the ECS to Polmadie. I guess the opposite normally happens the following night. However, tonight 5C11 has two locos allocated. I guess it's top and tailed, and the leading loco will remain in Edinburgh to work the Highland sleeper south.

One more question. Can any GBRF class 66 work the Highland sleeper portions, or only certain locos?

 

[mathstrains19]

Edinburgh I'm less clear about. Loco 2 arrives with the Highland sleeper. There is a shunt schedule into a siding but there are also 0D24 and 5D24 paths to Polmadie. 5D24 ran this morning with two carriages. In the opposite direction there is a 0C16 from Glasgow and a shunt in Edinburgh.

I suspect that the paths to Polmadie allow them to swap the Fort William seated/lounge coaches out for maintenance etc., as they usually work FTW-EDB-FTW each night.

One more question. Can any GBRF class 66 work the Highland sleeper portions, or only certain locos?

As far as I am aware, the Aberdeen and Inverness portions have no restrictions. The Fort William portion requires a loco that is fitted with RETB systems to allow it to work on the single line sections north of Helensburgh Upper.

 

[14xxDave]

I suspect that the paths to Polmadie allow them to swap the Fort William seated/lounge coaches out for maintenance etc., as they usually work FTW-EDB-FTW each night.


As far as I am aware, the Aberdeen and Inverness portions have no restrictions. The Fort William portion requires a loco that is fitted with RETB systems to allow it to work on the single line sections north of Helensburgh Upper.

And a compatible coupler and ETS so that's a 73 in the consist I assume.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

...

Edinburgh I'm less clear about. Loco 2 arrives with the Highland sleeper. There is a shunt schedule into a siding but there are also 0D24 and 5D24 paths to Polmadie. 5D24 ran this morning with two carriages. In the opposite direction there is a 0C16 from Glasgow and a shunt in Edinburgh.

Loco 5 arrives from Carstairs with the Edinburgh portion. It appears to run round and take the ECS to Polmadie. I guess the opposite normally happens the following night. However, tonight 5C11 has two locos allocated. I guess it's top and tailed, and the leading loco will remain in Edinburgh to work the Highland sleeper south.

One more question. Can any GBRF class 66 work the Highland sleeper portions, or only certain locos?

Just to add to the request for confirmation/clarification: there frequently seems to be a 92 in CS colours stabled on the non-platform road opposite platform 7 at Waverley. Not sure how often that happens or how it fits in to what you've described.