Caledonian Sleeper

[JamieL]

I find it weird that they are so heavily subsidised from taxes, and yet still charge so much!

The same could be said about the entirety of the UK railway network!

 

[godfreycomplex]

I find it weird that they are so heavily subsidised from taxes, and yet still charge so much!

Not that I'm trying to excuse that or anything, but even absolutely full a 16 car sleeper has not much more than 200 people on. And 60 of them are in the seats. That'd be less than a third full on an 11 car Pendolino. Add to that all the various ancillary costs and it's not a cheap operation.

 

[Bald Rick]

I find it weird that they are so heavily subsidised from taxes, and yet still charge so much!

Well, sleepers are very expensive to operate. Special rolling stock, with low capacity, that needs lots of crew (working night shifts) and servicing, used for one trip a day.

 

[Class15]

Not that I'm trying to excuse that or anything, but even absolutely full a 16 car sleeper has not much more than 200 people on. And 60 of them are in the seats. That'd be less than a third full on an 11 car Pendolino. Add to that all the various ancillary costs and it's not a cheap operation.

How are the seating maths working there? Just over 12 people a coach seems a little pessimistic to me, particularly considering that some are seating coaches.

 

[godfreycomplex]

How are the seating maths working there? Just over 12 people a coach seems a little pessimistic to me, particularly considering that some are seating coaches.

31 max in each seating coach. No passengers in each lounge car. 10 compartments in each sleeping coach, with 6 in PRM coaches. And not all of them are going to be double occupancy.

 

[Bald Rick]

How are the seating maths working there? Just over 12 people a coach seems a little pessimistic to me, particularly considering that some are seating coaches.

Typical formation has 9 sleepers with 10 cabins and 3 with 6 cabins, plus 2 seated coaches with 62 people between them (and 2 x bar cars). So the absolute maximum number of passengers is 216 in the beds and 62 seated, ie 278.

However, obviously, not all the cabins are taken by two people. And not all the cabins or seats (especially) are taken. And sometimes the trains don’t run at full length, whether that be because of planned engineering works (as is happening this weekend) or shortage of coaches (as has been happening for months).

 

[Tetragon213]

The same could be said about the entirety of the UK railway network!

Quite! It's always "demand outstrips supply", and yet the TOCs ask for ever larger subsidies while upcharging and downservicing...

Not that I'm trying to excuse that or anything, but even absolutely full a 16 car sleeper has not much more than 200 people on. And 60 of them are in the seats. That'd be less than a third full on an 11 car Pendolino. Add to that all the various ancillary costs and it's not a cheap operation.

Well, sleepers are very expensive to operate. Special rolling stock, with low capacity, that needs lots of crew (working night shifts) and servicing, used for one trip a day.

The Night Riviera runs on Diesel for the whole journey with the same limitations, and yet I paid about 2/3rds of Cally's fare for a room on the Riviera! GWR's offering included lounge access, free hot drinks, and breakfast in the fare, as opposed to a £10 fee for "continental breakfast" (which in my experience is code for "no-name pastry with no-name yoghurt and no-name jam").

I've heard you can pay another fee of £5 for shower access at Euston on the Cally? Iirc it was mentioned elsewhere on the forums, but I can't find any note of it on Cally's promotional material.

 

[enginedin]

I've heard you can pay another fee of £5 for shower access at Euston on the Cally?

During Your Trip

Read our Help and Support pages for everything you need to know while travelling with Caledonian Sleeper, including our hints and tips and all information about our accommodation.

www.sleeper.scot

> Guests arriving at Fort William, Inverness and London Euston can purchase a shower token for £10 from our on-board teams and showers are available on arrival.

as opposed to a £10 fee for "continental breakfast"

or, full Scottish included for passengers in a "club" room

 

[Tetragon213]

During Your Trip

Read our Help and Support pages for everything you need to know while travelling with Caledonian Sleeper, including our hints and tips and all information about our accommodation.

www.sleeper.scot

> Guests arriving at Fort William, Inverness and London Euston can purchase a shower token for £10 from our on-board teams and showers are available on arrival.


or, full Scottish included for passengers in a "club" room

£10? Jeez...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Night Riviera runs on Diesel for the whole journey with the same limitations, and yet I paid about 2/3rds of Cally's fare for a room on the Riviera! GWR's offering included lounge access, free hot drinks, and breakfast in the fare, as opposed to a £10 fee for "continental breakfast" (which in my experience is code for "no-name pastry with no-name yoghurt and no-name jam").

The Night Riviera, however, does not split into portions / join up portions en route each requiring a separate locomotive and driver plus and additional staff to handle or supervise the shunting movements caused by splitting does it? The Caledonian is a rather more complex operation.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Isn’t the supply and reliability of the loco’s GBRF’s problem, if theirs is a requirement for spare loco’s and crew it’s down to them!

Caledonian Sleeper pay GBRF for the traction, if there’s loco isn’t up to the job (defective) it’s GBRF that are contracted and therefore they should be the ones to have the standby loco and staff available.

Depends whether you are referring to the original failure (in the middle of nowhere) or the possibility of running the late ex Fort William service as an extra all the way to London.

 

[125Spotter]

I am adding little to that already debated, other than to note the subject of costs and how staggered I was when investigating the cost of a trip on the CS recently. I knew sleepers were expensive, but I was taken aback quite how much – looking at leisure travel and the somewhat romantic appeal of a trip to Scotland overnight by rail.

It was cost prohibitive for me. I wonder who is the majority actually booking and relying upon these spaces – and indeed who is paying for the journey, if not the same person? (i.e. are many of these bookings made by either people holding industry discounted travel authorities, or by employers sending staff to/from Scotland and funding that travel?).

On work travel, my employer has a generous travel policy and a number of staff north of the border who will travel to London on a regular basis, but even our budget would not stretch to the CS when compared to the option of having staff fly down in the early morning to London City, or take an early train getting them into the office in the late morning (as, indeed, generally happens).

Perhaps some employers are less flexible and require staff to attend at their usual hours, but ours will take the pragmatic view that a few hours later in the office to save some considerable spend on sleeper or an overnight hotel is overall better value to the business. Even travelling the previous day during the off-peak and funding a hotel may be cheaper at times, and not be particularly disruptive provided staff are able to check email and messages periodically etc.

 

[merry]

The Night Riviera, however, does not split into portions / join up portions en route each requiring a separate locomotive and driver plus and additional staff to handle or supervise the shunting movements caused by splitting does it? The Caledonian is a rather more complex operation.

On a point of pedantry... splitting and joining is historically chosen as an operational efficiency, saving running multiple trains (with multiple locos and crews) all the way to/from London. If the splits are more expensive today, do you not think they would have been abandoned?

Of course, there is the complication of needing diesel haulage north of Glasgow/Edinburgh, which is unavoidable. One might ask whether the diesel portions should run to Carstairs direct, avoiding some of the shunting...

Anyway, the point that railways are expensive still stand, even if initially obvious solutions are not as simple as they look.

 

[enginedin]

On work travel, my employer has a generous travel policy and a number of staff north of the border who will travel to London on a regular basis, but even our budget would not stretch to the CS when compared to the option of having staff fly down in the early morning to London City, or take an early train getting them into the office in the late morning (as, indeed, generally happens).

an increasing number of organisations - including the one I work for - (both commercial and public sector) are banning the use of internal flights except in very limited circumstances because of the emissions issue.

For me, we have a (nominal) max cost for hotels in London, and for travel (although we're allowed to travel 1st class for journeys over a given journey time) - the cost of Cal Sleeper doesn't exceed the sum of travel + hotel, so use is permitted

 

[norbitonflyer]

I can only assume the path the delayed entire 16 coaches took would have done for the delayed ex Fort William portion.
Still would have needed extra crew AND the control coach meant for the Northbound Fort William.

The same FW seated coach and lounge car is used for both southbound and northbound. It can't both go on to London and back to Fort William

 

[125Spotter]

an increasing number of organisations - including the one I work for - (both commercial and public sector) are banning the use of internal flights except in very limited circumstances because of the emissions issue.

A good point – and one I wholeheartedly endorse. My employer hasn't got around to doing this yet, it seems, although I do believe we buy a block carbon offset each year for all internal travel. The efficacies and variations in carbon offsets are well known to me, such that I'd prefer to reduce my emissions to begin with, and the carbon cost isn't something broadly factored into our travel policy as far as I recall. If I were north of the border I'd almost certainly be prioritising travel by rail if only for my disdain for (short haul) airport experiences and the asinine luggage restrictions on most such flights.

Employers are key to encouraging/nudging staff to think in more environmentally friendly ways and to then take those options, but I often find it regrettable that this doesn't extend to the societal shift that would be required to apply such choices to our leisure travel, too. For example, I'd love to follow suggestions to travel long distance by sea rather than air if I could, but this is (a) typically seen as the "luxury" option and priced accordingly, and of course (b) my annual leave entitlement would be eaten by that one trip, possibly without even the opportunity to spend time at the destination! This goes back to my earlier point that I find the CS regrettably cost prohibitive.

The cynic in me wonders whether the prohibition on internal flights is made largely in the employer's interest if they are obliged to report their carbon emissions/environmental impact assessment in their annual report. At least it still achieves the desired (carbon reducing) outcome.

 

[Sealink]

I am adding little to that already debated, other than to note the subject of costs and how staggered I was when investigating the cost of a trip on the CS recently. I knew sleepers were expensive, but I was taken aback quite how much – looking at leisure travel and the somewhat romantic appeal of a trip to Scotland overnight by rail.

It was cost prohibitive for me. I wonder who is the majority actually booking and relying upon these spaces – and indeed who is paying for the journey, if not the same person? (i.e. are many of these bookings made by either people holding industry discounted travel authorities, or by employers sending staff to/from Scotland and funding that travel?).

On work travel, my employer has a generous travel policy and a number of staff north of the border who will travel to London on a regular basis, but even our budget would not stretch to the CS when compared to the option of having staff fly down in the early morning to London City, or take an early train getting them into the office in the late morning (as, indeed, generally happens).

Perhaps some employers are less flexible and require staff to attend at their usual hours, but ours will take the pragmatic view that a few hours later in the office to save some considerable spend on sleeper or an overnight hotel is overall better value to the business. Even travelling the previous day during the off-peak and funding a hotel may be cheaper at times, and not be particularly disruptive provided staff are able to check email and messages periodically etc.

Where the sleeper makes sense is Edinburgh in August where a hotel I stay at charging £300 rather than the £59 I'm used to. Inverness is similar for the dates I am there.

That said, the CS charges these prices all year round and for me, most of the time it is unaffordable. (Seated Sleeper excepted but man, it is uncomfortable!)

 

[Bald Rick]

It was cost prohibitive for me. I wonder who is the majority actually booking and relying upon these spaces – and indeed who is paying for the journey, if not the same person? (i.e. are many of these bookings made by either people holding industry discounted travel authorities, or by employers sending staff to/from Scotland and funding that travel?).

In my experience of using the CS, albeit mostly in the warmer half of the year, it is generally tourists on board, even on the lowlander. Bear in mind that the prices are per cabin, not per person, so for a tourist couple travelling together it becomes quite reasonable. Especially for those tourists from North America, where most things are a lot more expensive over there than here.

The quota for staff discounted / free cabins is usually very low - sometimes only 1 cabin per train

 

[Peter Sarf]

In my experience of using the CS, albeit mostly in the warmer half of the year, it is generally tourists on board, even on the lowlander. Bear in mind that the prices are per cabin, not per person, so for a tourist couple travelling together it becomes quite reasonable. Especially for those tourists from North America, where most things are a lot more expensive over there than here.

The quota for staff discounted / free cabins is usually very low - sometimes only 1 cabin per train

It does seem that the market CS are aiming at is tourists from abroad so that would fit with your observations. So, as you say, the cabin cost will be reasonable for a couple. Those customers will be unlikely to return for another trip in this country anyway so marketing will be more important than the actual occasional bad experience.

I do wonder how many UK passengers feel that the service is no longer aimed at them and what their perceived alternatives are or could be. Could be as in a budget sleeper. Would a budget overnight (seated or basic bed) reaching deep into the Highlands work ?. Summer only ?. Glasgow and Edinburgh are too easy by domestic flight, coach or day train.

 

[enginedin]

Glasgow and Edinburgh are too easy by domestic flight, coach or day train.

this misses the point of organisations who have banned the use of internal flights. Sure, I can get to London for a 10:00 meeting using the 05:40 train - but this would mean a 04:30 alarm clock. I'd function better on a bad full-nights sleep than a very early start, so for me an alternative to the CS to Edinburgh / Glasgow would be ideal.

A good point – and one I wholeheartedly endorse.

in case you haven't seen, this is also being discussed at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ts-comparison-with-caledonian-sleeper.284802/

 

[Tetragon213]

this misses the point of organisations who have banned the use of internal flights. Sure, I can get to London for a 10:00 meeting using the 05:40 train - but this would mean a 04:30 alarm clock. I'd function better on a bad full-nights sleep than a very early start, so for me an alternative to the CS to Edinburgh / Glasgow would be ideal.


in case you haven't seen, this is also being discussed at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ts-comparison-with-caledonian-sleeper.284802/

Surely it would be cheaper for the company to pay you to take one of VT's late services, and stick you in a hotel for the night? My company has sent me up the night previous to far-away meetings.

Flying, however, is far too stressful for my tastes despite what my pfp might have you think. I like to admire planes from the other side of the fence

 

[JamieL]

It does seem that the market CS are aiming at is tourists from abroad so that would fit with your observations. So, as you say, the cabin cost will be reasonable for a couple. Those customers will be unlikely to return for another trip in this country anyway so marketing will be more important than the actual occasional bad experience.

I do wonder how many UK passengers feel that the service is no longer aimed at them and what their perceived alternatives are or could be. Could be as in a budget sleeper. Would a budget overnight (seated or basic bed) reaching deep into the Highlands work ?. Summer only ?. Glasgow and Edinburgh are too easy by domestic flight, coach or day train.

I am a semi-regular user of the CS from a little outside Glasgow. Personally I don't think it is that expensive - a Club suite is about £193 with railcard vice a First Class Single at around £130 (+£5 for the journey into Glasgow). Obviously you can get advances to reduce that but that is not guaranteed. The benefit of the CS is the time efficient travel - I can get picked up at my local station at roughly midnight, meaning a full uninterrupted day, and be in London for 0800 for a full day there as well.

 

[HS2isgood]

What's the cheapest advances you can get on Caley for the cheapest room (for 1 but I think the price is the same for 2)?

 

[enginedin]

What's the cheapest advances you can get on Caley for the cheapest room (for 1 but I think the price is the same for 2)?

I think £135: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=EDB&dest=EUS&rte=345&tkt=1S7

 

[Peter Sarf]

this misses the point of organisations who have banned the use of internal flights. Sure, I can get to London for a 10:00 meeting using the 05:40 train - but this would mean a 04:30 alarm clock. I'd function better on a bad full-nights sleep than a very early start, so for me an alternative to the CS to Edinburgh / Glasgow would be ideal.


in case you haven't seen, this is also being discussed at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ts-comparison-with-caledonian-sleeper.284802/

I was thinking in terms of possibilities for a budget sleeper as an alternative to the CS. If your firm is prepared to pay then CS it is. I wonder how much of a market that leaves for a budget overnight service to Glasgow/Edinburgh or the Highlands.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It does seem that the market CS are aiming at is tourists from abroad so that would fit with your observations

I think the key thing here is that for an overseas tourist the perception of the CS price is that it’s not too expensive.

My best friend from school lives in Australia and was in the UK for three months late last year (teachers in Queensland get three months paid leave for 25 years service!!!) and her and her husband got the highlander.

Because she booked it from Australia, alongside flights, various hotels, some other train tickets etc etc, all she really cared about was “the number at the bottom of the spreadsheet” not the component parts. Her holiday came in under budget, so happy days.

Incidentally, I asked her what she thought of it, and she said:

Staff 10/10
Lounge car atmosphere 9/10
Food 7/10
Drink 10/10
Room 7/10 (lots of squeaks apparently)
Ride quality 5/10

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think the key thing here is that for an overseas tourist the perception of the CS price is that it’s not too expensive.

My best friend from school lives in Australia and was in the UK for three months late last year (teachers in Queensland get three months paid leave for 25 years service!!!) and her and her husband got the highlander.

Because she booked it from Australia, alongside flights, various hotels, some other train tickets etc etc, all she really cared about was “the number at the bottom of the spreadsheet” not the component parts. Her holiday came in under budget, so happy days.

Incidentally, I asked her what she thought of it, and she said:

Staff 10/10
Lounge car atmosphere 9/10
Food 7/10
Drink 10/10
Room 7/10 (lots of squeaks apparently)
Ride quality 5/10

The squeaks might be worth fixing. I can imagine these are lots of little niggles that are not big budget fixes.

 

[glenbogle]

I’m at Fort William, train is cancelled due to an electrical fault.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was thinking in terms of possibilities for a budget sleeper as an alternative to the CS. If your firm is prepared to pay then CS it is. I wonder how much of a market that leaves for a budget overnight service to Glasgow/Edinburgh or the Highlands.

There are already budget options: day train or the seats on the CS. If that isn’t budget enough, then Megabus or Flix will have to do.

The issue with budget sleepers in this country - as ever - is that there isn’t much difference in the number of berths you can put in a ‘budget’ sleeper coach and a typical CS sleeper coach. But the cost of operation will be almost identical. So to run a budget sleeper needs more subsidy, and most likely all it will do is take people off day trains, so the industry loses out twice.

I think the key thing here is that for an overseas tourist the perception of the CS price is that it’s not too expensive.

My best friend from school lives in Australia and was in the UK for three months late last year (teachers in Queensland get three months paid leave for 25 years service!!!) and her and her husband got the highlander.

A quick google suggests that experienced senior teachers (which I guess your friends are if they’ve done 25 years) have salaries in the region of £65k. With two of those salaries, the cost of a sleeper cabin for two of around £350 for a trip to the Highlands including breakfast and a night’s accommodation will not seem outlandish. Especially compared to the cost of flying + hotel once you include getting to the airport, bag charges, etc.

 

[PG]

The squeaks might be worth fixing. I can imagine these are lots of little niggles that are not big budget fixes.

No-one ever seemed to bother sorting out the creaking gangways on the Mk3s, though whether that was down to the cost of doing so or indifference I've no idea?