Caledonian Sleeper

[Scotrail84]

I've heard people ask the on train staff for an on the day upgrade in the past. Clearly it depends on availability. I think they were quoted over £200 though.

If there's rooms empty you can upgrade on the night but prices vary depending on what class you travel. Your £200 is not far off the mark for a STD room.

 

[D6130]

Thats a bit naughty if they're using that excuse.

It is engineering work....just mechanical rather than civil.

 

[Scotrail84]

Genuine question here, is the CS to FTW not a community lifeline up the WHL? I'm not sure they locals will be too happy that the service is getting canned 3 days out of 6 for 4 weeks with little in the way of ScotRail services to supplement..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

It is engineering work....just mechanical rather than civil.

If they were to be honest they'd say the Scots gov spunked £150m on 75 coaches that were so poorly designed and constructed we now have to tart them up after only 5 years in service.

 

[greatkingrat]

How will they get the Scottish-based crews back to their home depot? Wouldn't fancy a taxi from Aberdeen to Fort William!

 

[Scotrail84]

How will they get the Scottish-based crews back to their home depot? Wouldn't fancy a taxi from Aberdeen to Fort William!

They will likely be taxied to/from Kingussie or Inverness.

 

[HandyHat]

Do we know if CS have actually denied refunds/delay repay to any affected customers?

Yes: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-delay-repay.279696/

 

[JamieL]

Yes: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-delay-repay.279696/

A seated customer whose end-to-end journey wasn't affected and who boarded the train long after the arrival time of the CS portion had been adjusted.

 

[Gonzoiku]

A seated customer whose end-to-end journey wasn't affected and who boarded the train long after the arrival time of the CS portion had been adjusted.

The adjustments in question were made to the arrival time at final destination, but not to the arrival times at intermediate destinations (for Aberdeen, First William and Inverness services as far as I recall). I assume a complete retiming would have been a huge undertaking.

GZ

 

[Scotrail84]

Seems 1B01 left on time but ended up 90 late at Upper Tyndrum. Ran E and G to make up time but still departed Edinburgh 60 down. 1M16 lost nearly an hour at Crewe as well after making up a good chunk off time. 1M16 currently 88 late.

 

[enginedin]

Ran E and G

for those of not up with the jargon, what does this mean?

 

[Class15]

for those of not up with the jargon, what does this mean?

It stands for Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[diffident]

for those of not up with the jargon, what does this mean?

Edinburgh and Glasgow

 

[Gonzoiku]

It stands for Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Well.... It means, I believe, the line of the former Edinburgh & Glasgow Railway, rather than those cities!

GZ

 

[jfollows]

So, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_and_Glasgow_Railway

But I agree, this happens to be one abbreviation I remember but in general it’s not helpful to post abbreviations without explaining/expanding them first.

So 1B01, the 19:50 Fort William to Euston via Edinburgh, is booked to travel via Glasgow Queen Street and Airdrie but used the faster route via Falkirk to make up time.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P01139/2025-01-06/detailed#allox_id=0 shows that 21 minutes were recouped between Westerton and Newbridge Junction. At the expense of not dropping off Glasgow passengers at Queen Street.

 

[jagardner1984]

So, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_and_Glasgow_Railway

But I agree, this happens to be one abbreviation I remember but in general it’s not helpful to post abbreviations without explaining/expanding them first.

So 1B01, the 19:50 Fort William to Euston via Edinburgh, is booked to travel via Glasgow Queen Street and Airdrie but used the faster route via Falkirk to make up time.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P01139/2025-01-06/detailed#allox_id=0 shows that 21 minutes were recouped between Westerton and Newbridge Junction. At the expense of not dropping off Glasgow passengers at Queen Street.

When it does so, is it one of the only passengers services that uses the north/west portion of the Cowlairs Triangle (West of Eastfield Depot) ? e.g. from The Edinburgh / Glasgow Main Line (Via Falkirk High) direct to the West Highland Line, bypassing Glasgow Queen Street entirely ?

55°53'21.4"N 4°14'30.9"W

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[Kite159]

So, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_and_Glasgow_Railway

But I agree, this happens to be one abbreviation I remember but in general it’s not helpful to post abbreviations without explaining/expanding them first.

So 1B01, the 19:50 Fort William to Euston via Edinburgh, is booked to travel via Glasgow Queen Street and Airdrie but used the faster route via Falkirk to make up time.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P01139/2025-01-06/detailed#allox_id=0 shows that 21 minutes were recouped between Westerton and Newbridge Junction. At the expense of not dropping off Glasgow passengers at Queen Street.

You would hope it didn't have any day passengers for Glasgow on board, unless they were off-loaded at Dalmuir and put into a taxi.

 

[JamieL]

You would hope it didn't have any day passengers for Glasgow on board, unless they were off-loaded at Dalmuir and put into a taxi.

Why would they need to have been put into a taxi when loads of trains go from Dalmuir to Glasgow?

 

[Kite159]

Why would they need to have been put into a taxi when loads of trains go from Dalmuir to Glasgow?

Normally the sleeper calls at Dalmuir at 23:50 which does have a couple of options towards Queen Street, but considering the sleeper didn't arrive at Dalmuir until 01:12 the next train towards Glasgow would have been at 05:47

 

[JamieL]

Normally the sleeper calls at Dalmuir at 23:50 which does have a couple of options towards Queen Street, but considering the sleeper didn't arrive at Dalmuir until 01:12 the next train towards Glasgow would have been at 05:47

That makes sense - certainly wouldn't want to be stuck in Dalmuir for that long!

 

[driverd]

You're very mistaken, I do not dislike the CS at all. I know one or two staff members are they're lovely people.

Nonsense, ScotRail and LNER took the sensible decision not to run services between Perth and Inverness because of the weather and 40mph speed restrictions and utilise road transport instead. CS still tried to run 1S25 and it got as far as Blair Atholl where it remains and all passengers decanted onto road transport once they waited on it arriving. One look at the weather this morning told you that line was never going to be open to traffic.

You seem to forget that this train is objectly different to every other train on the network. No one, who has paid £300+ for a bed to sleep in, wants to be decanted onto a coach in the middle of the night.

If this were any other daytime train I would entirely agree with your post, but it's not. The selling point and, indeed, reason for travel for most people is the fact that you can sleep on the train and arrive refreshed, as though you have had a night in a hotel. That's how the CS is sold and thats the appeal to most. This isn't the newspaper train of the 1970s.

Personally I commend CS for their approach. They very rarely admit defeat in poor weather, they are very proactive at communicating with customers and they set realistic expectations around delays - timetabling trains to compensate for said delays and minimising the knock on to the rest of the network.

 

[MrJeeves]

I was quite happy with my sleeper experience on Sunday night. Friendly staff at Euston in the guest lounge, swift boarding, okay sleep, and a warm shower in the morning much to my surprise.

Breakfast wasn't much to write home about, but it was satisfactory, and we pulled into Inverness early (going off GBTT) to a lovely snow shower.

Spent about an hour in the lounge at that end having a coffee and a biscuit before dropping my case at my hotel and popping across for a day trip to Kyle on 10:xx service.

With my 45% discount, and split across two passengers, it worked out good value versus travelling up in the day and spending on a hotel and breakfast. The sleeper was extremely lightly loaded with only 7 club rooms booked when I checked a night or two before, so we ended up paying £192.50 between two, booked about 3 weeks before travel, but it was still at that price when I looked at occupancy. I wouldn't pay full price, and especially not when 16-25 Railcards aren't valid for double occupancy bookings.

They seemed to be rather actively swapping passengers between rooms at Euston, which surprised me. I didn't know why, but in the lounge I did have my keycard taken off me before being returned 10 minutes later for some unexplained reason. They seemed to have two keycards for the same room, though? Not sure if they normally hand out two cards for double occupancy rooms but forgot and it caused confusion?

There did also seem to be a momentary issue with the water in my room, specifically with the tap, but it was fine after a while. I did have a bit of a worry then!

 

[Scotrail84]

You seem to forget that this train is objectly different to every other train on the network. No one, who has paid £300+ for a bed to sleep in, wants to be decanted onto a coach in the middle of the night.

If this were any other daytime train I would entirely agree with your post, but it's not. The selling point and, indeed, reason for travel for most people is the fact that you can sleep on the train and arrive refreshed, as though you have had a night in a hotel. That's how the CS is sold and thats the appeal to most. This isn't the newspaper train of the 1970s.

Personally I commend CS for their approach. They very rarely admit defeat in poor weather, they are very proactive at communicating with customers and they set realistic expectations around delays - timetabling trains to compensate for said delays and minimising the knock on to the rest of the network.

When other TOCs that use the same route and who are experienced in anticipating issues due to poor weather cancel services you'd think that CS would maybe take some advice from them and follow suit. I'm pretty sure their controllers sit alongside ScotRails and Networks Rails control staff in that place at Cowlairs so it's not as if they don't know whats going on.

Perth would have been about 05:45 for a decant for buses (which ScotRail had already organised in advance). Not an unreasonable time since the passengers have all been on the train since half 8 the previous evening. As it happens it took them hours to get the replacement transport to arrive at Blair Atholl with the passengers arriving in Inverness well after midday. Over 4 hours after their scheduled arrival time, onward connections missed and potentially plans ruined too. A little bit of foresight goes along way in the railway and when you see other TOCs being proactive due to the weather and other issues then perhaps they should take note and do the same instead of giving themselves more trouble than is needed. Theres no need to try and be the only service that runs when risk outweighs the reward just for clout such as what happened in this case. Do the right thing, people will understand.

EDIT
Carrbridge to Inverness is now live on Traksy.

As is Inverness to Dingwall.

 

[Peter Sarf]

When other TOCs that use the same route and who are experienced in anticipating issues due to poor weather cancel services you'd think that CS would maybe take some advice from them and follow suit. I'm pretty sure their controllers sit alongside ScotRails and Networks Rails control staff in that place at Cowlairs so it's not as if they don't know whats going on.

Perth would have been about 05:45 for a decant for buses (which ScotRail had already organised in advance). Not an unreasonable time since the passengers have all been on the train since half 8 the previous evening. As it happens it took them hours to get the replacement transport to arrive at Blair Atholl with the passengers arriving in Inverness well after midday. Over 4 hours after their scheduled arrival time, onward connections missed and potentially plans ruined too. A little bit of foresight goes along way in the railway and when you see other TOCs being proactive due to the weather and other issues then perhaps they should take note and do the same instead of giving themselves more trouble than is needed. Theres no need to try and be the only service that runs when risk outweighs the reward just for clout such as what happened in this case. Do the right thing, people will understand.

EDIT
Carrbridge to Inverness is now live on Traksy.

As is Inverness to Dingwall.

I am assuming LNER and Scotrail priority was to terminate their trains at a main station.

For CS an extra priority is giving people a chance to sleep - it is a key point of the service. It would have possibly looked easier to terminate the CS at Perth and then wake and de-train the passengers at say 9am. Then the coaches to Inverness might still arrive at midday. On the other hand getting the sleeper train further North would have satisfied any customers requiring stops beyond Perth to Blair Atholl.

Would the road coaches be earlier meeting the train at Blair Atholl than if they had started loaded from Perth at 05:45 ?.
Or 09:00 ?.
Would the road coaches have been a slower journey if carrying passengers from Perth ?.
- I wonder if the road coaches might have actually left Perth a lot earlier OR perhaps come down from Inverness so Perth was pointless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perth would have been about 05:45 for a decant for buses (which ScotRail had already organised in advance). Not an unreasonable time

0545 is absolutely an unreasonable time for most people to be getting out of bed. Particularly as it won't have been 0545, they'd have been woken much earlier to be ready to be off then, as you couldn't just leave it blocking a platform at Perth as ScotRail needed them to reverse their own trains.

I don't have a problem with it being Perth, but an option should have been available to sleep in until a more reasonable time (not before 0700) and use the ScotRail buses if the journey was not time critical. Preferences for individuals for this kind of situation where disruption was anticipated could be sorted out before bed.

 

[GLC]

In adverse weather conditions, surely the most sensible thing for CS to do, would be to hire a coach for passengers to travel on, and give each passenger a sleeping tablet for the trip. This would be much cheaper than the diesel for a Class 66 + 73 at this time of year, so would also reduce subsidy on the taxpayer

 

[RGM654]

When other TOCs that use the same route and who are experienced in anticipating issues due to poor weather cancel services you'd think that CS would maybe take some advice from them and follow suit. I'm pretty sure their controllers sit alongside ScotRails and Networks Rails control staff in that place at Cowlairs so it's not as if they don't know whats going on.

Perth would have been about 05:45 for a decant for buses (which ScotRail had already organised in advance). Not an unreasonable time since the passengers have all been on the train since half 8 the previous evening. As it happens it took them hours to get the replacement transport to arrive at Blair Atholl with the passengers arriving in Inverness well after midday. Over 4 hours after their scheduled arrival time, onward connections missed and potentially plans ruined too. A little bit of foresight goes along way in the railway and when you see other TOCs being proactive due to the weather and other issues then perhaps they should take note and do the same instead of giving themselves more trouble than is needed. Theres no need to try and be the only service that runs when risk outweighs the reward just for clout such as what happened in this case. Do the right thing, people will understand.

EDIT
Carrbridge to Inverness is now live on Traksy.

As is Inverness to Dingwall.

And if CS had done like the other TOCs and cancelled the train, what would that have done to passengers plans? Sometimes there is no right answer.

 

[Peter Sarf]

In adverse weather conditions, surely the most sensible thing for CS to do, would be to hire a coach for passengers to travel on, and give each passenger a sleeping tablet for the trip. This would be much cheaper than the diesel for a Class 66 + 73 at this time of year, so would also reduce subsidy on the taxpayer

Your joking of course. Are CS qualified to administer such drugs !.

My idea is for a sleeper coach to Scotland is - departure points from outside a chemist in Victoria, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness etc etc.
Blair Atholl ? - never heard of it (there is probably a distillery nearby anyway).

 

[Indigo Soup]

Your joking of course. Are CS qualified to administer such drugs !.

A suitably qualified physician could presumably be employed to travel on each route. I'm not sure that, by the time their salary had been paid, it would work out cheaper than alternatives.

One would also have to consider the case of passengers who cannot safely be administered drugs to induce sleep.

I sometimes wonder whether someof the posters to this forum live in the real world rather than some fanasy utopia

Some, I think, live in a fantasy dystopia instead. Others appear to consider the dystopia preferable.

 

[Krokodil]

Perth would have been about 05:45 for a decant for buses (which ScotRail had already organised in advance). Not an unreasonable time

You speak for yourself!

 

[BRX]

Perhaps some suitably strong hallucinatory drugs could be used to convince the passengers that they had already been to the Highlands and come back again, when in fact they had never left Euston station. Perhaps the giant advertising board could be used to help induce the illusion. This would save a lot of diesel not just for the train but for replacement coaches too.