Caledonian Sleeper

[JamieL]

After how long though? Crews could have been well out of hours by the time the line opened up again if it did, plus there was miles and miles of 40mph speed restrictions to pass through. It's my opinion it should have been planned to terminate at Perth where it's easy to get everyone off, its a staffed station for assistance, then on to buses or taxis and straight up the A9. Job done.

Blair Atholl offered an additional hour in bed for the sleeper passengers and a 30 mile shorter road journey to Inverness. There are also other factors to consider - how many passengers were bound for the end destination rather than the intermediate stops (Pitlochry for example)? Where were the taxis coming from etc. It isn't hard or difficult to find the coach at Blair Atholl station!

 

[Sealink]

With regards to re-timing to avoid Delay Repay, my understanding is that this isn't the case, Delay Repay is paid regardless unless the passenger booked after the timetable is revised.

 

[Bill57p9]

Unsure what happened to the 1S25 stock at Blair Atholl, however the Fort William and Aberdeen locos ran light to Craigentinny leaving the stock at Fort William and Aberdeen respectively.

 

[68000]

How about hotels and connecting other modes of transport ?. It is why no one I know relies on the railways since the strikes for fear of being left stranded. Even though there do not seem to have been strikes for ages people just view railway travel as risky - even I do really.

That is what travel insurance is for

 

[GusB]

With regards to re-timing to avoid Delay Repay, my understanding is that this isn't the case, Delay Repay is paid regardless unless the passenger booked after the timetable is revised.

This is what I struggle to understand; if your departure and/or arrival time is amended before you board, you then can decide whether or not your journey is worthwhile and you can request a refund if you decide not to travel.

However, if the arrival time is adjusted after you board, it's far too late for you to make any alternative arrangements and it would be rather unfair to refuse delay repay. The Caledonian Sleeper website makes this clear:

After Your Trip

Read our Help and Support pages for everything you need to know after your trip with Caledonian Sleeper, including claiming Delay Repay and claiming refunds.

www.sleeper.scot

We calculate delays against the planned timetable, which we publish in advance and make available on our website. The length of a delay is based on the time your train arrives at your destination compared to its scheduled arrival time, not the delay when you first set off.

If Caledonian Sleeper decides that it wants to amend its departure or arrival times, this is a deviation from the planned timetable and it should cough up. The company may be pro-active in advising passengers by text of any delays, but there's no guarantee that a customer will receive that text in good time.

 

[MrJeeves]

This is what I struggle to understand; if your departure and/or arrival time is amended before you board, you then can decide whether or not your journey is worthwhile and you can request a refund if you decide not to travel.

I shouldn't plan what I'm going to do at my destination until i get on the train just in case CS decide to retime it that morning?

I'm going to Scotland this weekend on the sleeper, and if they retime our arrival, I'll miss out on a connection for journey I have planned in the morning. Should I not get compensated for sitting at the station for 2 hours instead?

I won't want a refund because I have hotels booked for the trip away and more journeys later in the day and week, but I also want something for the inconvenience caused!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2025 ==

If Caledonian Sleeper decides that it wants to amend its departure or arrival times, this is a deviation from the planned timetable and it should cough up. The company may be pro-active in advising passengers by text of any delays, but there's no guarantee that a customer will receive that text in good time.

Trouble is that the wording is so vague. The planned timetable is whatever is in industry systems the morning of departure, which could be different to the times advertised when you booked, and different to planned delays entered into real time information systems on the day. Trouble is that if it matches what the timetable says in the morning, then every system will consider it to have run on time, probably including CS.

 

[GusB]

I shouldn't plan what I'm going to do at my destination until i get on the train just in case CS decide to retime it that morning?

I'm going to Scotland this weekend on the sleeper, and if they retime our arrival, I'll miss out on a connection for journey I have planned in the morning. Should I not get compensated for sitting at the station for 2 hours instead?

I won't want a refund because I have hotels booked for the trip away and more journeys later in the day and week, but I also want something for the inconvenience caused!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2025 ==


Trouble is that the wording is so vague. The planned timetable is whatever is in industry systems the morning of departure, which could be different to the times advertised when you booked, and different to planned delays entered into real time information systems on the day. Trouble is that if it matches what the timetable says in the morning, then every system will consider it to have run on time, probably including CS.

I think we're actually in agreement here - perhaps my wording wasn't very good.

Putting it simply, Caledonian Sleeper should not be able to deny delay repay because it has decided on the day that the conditions are poor and that the timetable should be amended as a result.

The actual timetable may be "re-planned" according to conditions, but as far as the punter who is buying the ticket is concerned, the "planned timetable" is that which is advertised and it is that timetable that should be used to calculate any delay repay.

If a customer is told about changes to the timetable before they travel, they have at least been informed and may be able to make alternative arrangements. I agree that it doesn't really help if someone's plans are completely buggered up. However, if the arrival time is amended after someone has boarded, there's little opportunity for anyone to revise their plans.

The wording may be vague, but I think this would go against CS if anyone was to challenge it in court. I'd be interested to know if anyone has challenged it so far.

 

[JamieL]

Putting it simply, Caledonian Sleeper should not be able to deny delay repay because it has decided on the day that the conditions are poor and that the timetable should be amended as a result.

The actual timetable may be "re-planned" according to conditions, but as far as the punter who is buying the ticket is concerned, the "planned timetable" is that which is advertised and it is that timetable that should be used to calculate any delay repay.

If a customer is told about changes to the timetable before they travel, they have at least been informed and may be able to make alternative arrangements. I agree that it doesn't really help if someone's plans are completely buggered up. However, if the arrival time is amended after someone has boarded, there's little opportunity for anyone to revise their plans.

The wording may be vague, but I think this would go against CS if anyone was to challenge it in court. I'd be interested to know if anyone has challenged it so far.

Do we know if CS have actually denied refunds/delay repay to any affected customers?

 

[cl19]

Unsure what happened to the 1S25 stock at Blair Atholl, however the Fort William and Aberdeen locos ran light to Craigentinny leaving the stock at Fort William and Aberdeen respectively.

Nothing on RTT but I happened to be at Stirling station yesterday afternoon when it passed through, presumably en route to Polmadie.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Nothing on RTT but I happened to be at Stirling station yesterday afternoon when it passed through, presumably en route to Polmadie.

I was following 5S25 yesterday on Railcam's signalling map as it passed Cumbernauld, Coatbridge and Kirkwood on its way to Polmadie. It arrived at Polmadie shortly after 14.00.

 

[Scotrail84]

Unsure what happened to the 1S25 stock at Blair Atholl, however the Fort William and Aberdeen locos ran light to Craigentinny leaving the stock at Fort William and Aberdeen respectively.

It returned to Polmadie and the locos ran light to Craigy. There should be a STP on Thursday to get the set up to Inverness. I hope the sets at FTW and ABD have been left on shore supply or have empty water tanks, because if not there is a risk the internal water pipes will burst with the plummet in temperatures predicted through today and tomorrow. Last time that happened in Inverness a whole set was basically flooded and unable to be used.

EDIT. Here is the path for 5S25. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:44577/2025-01-02/detailed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2025 ==

Do we know if CS have actually denied refunds/delay repay to any affected customers?

It's my understanding that if the times are amended in advance for the service to arrive after the 'normal' booked arrival time then no delay repay is owed. I could be wrong though

 

[Peter Sarf]

That is what travel insurance is for

So if travel insurance is considered necessary then that leads me suggest that anyone travelling on the Caledonian Sleeper should really have taken out travel insurance.
This then leads me to to wonder - is CS that unreliable ?.
If CS is that unreliable then book a flight instead of trying to use the sleeper. At least with a flight there are bound to be many alternatives flights available.
Even with insurance the original plans are still compromised.
For the cost the sleeper needs to have something to justify it over alternatives - perhaps reliability is not one of the advantages.

Note that if insurance companies start specifically excluding Caledonian Sleeper from their cover then that is an indication of how unreliable they are and therefore should be avoided. I do not think we are at that stage though. From my recollections an annual travel insurance policy covers all PRE-BOOKED transport (not a lift to the airport in your mates car). So cover is likely sound.

I shouldn't plan what I'm going to do at my destination until i get on the train just in case CS decide to retime it that morning?

I'm going to Scotland this weekend on the sleeper, and if they retime our arrival, I'll miss out on a connection for journey I have planned in the morning. Should I not get compensated for sitting at the station for 2 hours instead?

I won't want a refund because I have hotels booked for the trip away and more journeys later in the day and week, but I also want something for the inconvenience caused!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2025 ==


Trouble is that the wording is so vague. The planned timetable is whatever is in industry systems the morning of departure, which could be different to the times advertised when you booked, and different to planned delays entered into real time information systems on the day. Trouble is that if it matches what the timetable says in the morning, then every system will consider it to have run on time, probably including CS.

+

I think we're actually in agreement here - perhaps my wording wasn't very good.

Putting it simply, Caledonian Sleeper should not be able to deny delay repay because it has decided on the day that the conditions are poor and that the timetable should be amended as a result.

The actual timetable may be "re-planned" according to conditions, but as far as the punter who is buying the ticket is concerned, the "planned timetable" is that which is advertised and it is that timetable that should be used to calculate any delay repay.

If a customer is told about changes to the timetable before they travel, they have at least been informed and may be able to make alternative arrangements. I agree that it doesn't really help if someone's plans are completely buggered up. However, if the arrival time is amended after someone has boarded, there's little opportunity for anyone to revise their plans.

The wording may be vague, but I think this would go against CS if anyone was to challenge it in court. I'd be interested to know if anyone has challenged it so far.

I suppose to boil this down.

If a prospective traveller considers the risk of itinerary drift to be too great or too damaging then don't travel. That is where I come from. It does not matter what the insurance covers really because you are still left with a plan in tatters. Leading to wasted time (holiday leave) as a minimum.

For me on my longer travels I would insert a day or two after a significant travel leg and have lower priority plans for those days. In my case this would be after a 12 hour flight a couple of nights in hotel before onward travel by sleeper train. That is OK for a longer holiday but for a zip up the UK mainland on a sleeper train for a weekend / few days away I am not going to pad it out with contingency.

So the question is.
Should we view the Caledonian Sleeper as something too unreliable to use ?.
It does not matter about insurance as that will not PREVENT service perturbation.

---

Are we drifting off topic enough to warrant a separate thread ?.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think we're actually in agreement here - perhaps my wording wasn't very good.

On reflection, I think so too. I interpreted the mention of a refund if delayed before boarding as effectively forfeiting your delay repay, which wasn't what you said.

 

[JamieL]

So the question is.
Should we view the Caledonian Sleeper as something too unreliable to use ?

This is a ridiculous question. The CS is one of the best and most reliable forms of long distance UK travel. I commute north/south regularly and alternate use between car, Avanti day train, the CS and EasyJet/BA depending upon requirement. The CS is by far the most reliable means of travel as well as being incredibly time efficient.

That is even evident from this current example. The CS got its passengers to their end destination (albeit coaches for those post-Blair Atholl). LNER failed to do that. ScotRail failed to do that. Even the airlines were hampered by terrible fog that impacted many airlines. If anything, rail enthusiasts should surely be pleased that CS is demonstrating some of the traits of BR of old, where getting passengers to their end destination was actually a concern, rather that griping about delay repay?

 

[Buzby]

The CS is one of the best and most reliable forms of long distance UK travel.

I’m inclined to agree - however today’s ’Daily Telegraph’ has an amazing headline (that the SNP Govt is responsible for the decline in CS services, noting 934 complaints since nationalisation, and the increase in fares (today) of an ‘inflation-busting‘ 6.39%. It didn’t say if these were all Delay Repay complaints, but unlikely as it stated some were related to ‘the repair and upkeep’.

Just another hatchet job by the press!

 

[Scotrail84]

I’m inclined to agree - however today’s ’Daily Telegraph’ has an amazing headline (that the SNP Govt is responsible for the decline in CS services, noting 934 complaints since nationalisation, and the increase in fares (today) of an ‘inflation-busting‘ 6.39%. It didn’t say if these were all Delay Repay complaints, but unlikely as it stated some were related to ‘the repair and upkeep’.

Just another hatchet job by the press!

I'd say that the upkeep and repair complaints will be genuine as the coaches are of poor design and quality. There are a number of vehicles out of traffic long term due to the cracking issues, 7 pr 8 I believe. If they lose a few more a whole service will need to be canned completely until a suitable mod is found. Other issues include no hot water, broken toilets, flooded rooms, no catering due to kitchen faults etc. Further evidence that the coaches are in dire need of repairs is that for around 6 weeks the Aberdeen and Ft William service will run on alternative days in January through to February in a bid to repair/overhaul the coaches. Putting the fares up will be seen as a kick in teeth to punters who want quality for the ridiculously high prices they are being asked to pay, not an email to be told they're being downgraded or their journey has been cancelled due to coach issues.

 

[jagardner1984]

I think from Governments on all sides of the borders, the naked disdain of a variety of newspapers towards the current incumbents at Westminster and Holyrood make their “opinion” an irrelevance. Though readers may of course interrogate the facts reported and make their own judgments.

“Inflation busting” is a good line, but some might say on a service which is in the weird position of being massively subsidised and yet demand significantly exceeding supply at various times of year, the difference between a 2 and 6% increase on a £250 fare is, I would suggest, highly unlikely to see additional berths leaving Euston empty. These are not the staples of bread and eggs which mark a real impact on the cost of living. Ironic given I would imagine the Telegraph readers are, I would suspect, better represented amongst CS travellers than for example, readers of the National (an independence supporting newspaper for those unfamiliar).

I would imagine over coming years (more so with GB Railways) we may have to come to terms with the baffling concept in times of modern social media click bait headlines divisiveness. That two things may be true at once. The water system that was rubbish on the Mk5 under Serco will remain rubbish under “the SNP”. Should Anas Sarwar take the reins in 2026, the best asset of CS, the brilliant staff and service, will be brilliant under “Labour” as they were under Serco. And almost all combinations will outrage the Mail and the Telegraph. There may be some organisational / industrial relations benefits of a unified system, but a silver bullet to cure all the ills of the privatised or indeed publicly owned railways before or after (OLR), it certainly will not be.

 

[BRX]

Are we drifting off topic enough to warrant a separate thread ?.

Yes please. This thread is supposed to be about the day to day workings of the sleeper operation. The reliability arguments get a little boring when they are on repeat every few months.

 

[alistairlees]

Although Caledonian sleeper fares also increased a year ago, for several years before that they did not increase at all. It would be more accurate for the telegraph to report something along the lines of ‘no increase for three years (if it was three - I would need to check), followed by two years of increase above inflation, still leaves the Caledonian sleeper cheaper than it was before Covid, once inflation is allowed for’.

But that would make for a boring headline, would fail to enrage its target audience, and would fail to reconfirm its readers’ biases. So they go with something that is true in isolation, but not representative on the whole.

We live in a world where the truth is increasingly unimportant it seems. Long term this is corrosive and bad for decision making, but that’s another topic.

 

[Krokodil]

Although Caledonian sleeper fares also increased a year ago, for several years before that they did not increase at all. It would be more accurate for the telegraph to report something along the lines of ‘no increase for three years (if it was three - I would need to check), followed by two years of increase above inflation, still leaves the Caledonian sleeper cheaper than it was before Covid, once inflation is allowed for’.

But that would make for a boring headline, would fail to enrage its target audience, and would fail to reconfirm its readers’ biases. So they go with something that is true in isolation, but not representative on the whole.

We live in a world where the truth is increasingly unimportant it seems. Long term this is corrosive and bad for decision making, but that’s another topic.

Exactly the same as staff payrises being described as "inflation-busting", just as long as you ignore the several years of freezes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m inclined to agree - however today’s ’Daily Telegraph’ has an amazing headline (that the SNP Govt is responsible for the decline in CS services, noting 934 complaints since nationalisation

Nationalised 18 months ago; somewhere in the region of 400,000 journeys in that time, so somewhere in the region of 0.24% of journeys prompted a complaint. And I bet some of them are multiple, dare I say serial complainers.

 

[chrisjo]

....serial complainers.

Sounds a bit close to home in this thread?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Nationalised 18 moths ago; somewhere in the region of 400,000 journeys in that time, so somewhere in the region of 0.24% of journeys promoted a complaint. And I bet some of them are multiple, dare I say serial complainers.

Indeed getting on for half a million punters. And I think the demand versus supply ratio tends to suggest the market can withstand an above inflation rise. Then the money can be spent on improvements to the reliability of the stock perhaps. Then one less thing for the media to complain about.

Personally I would like a cheap sleeper - but that is not going to happen and the results would be a heavier subsidy and/or a really shoddy service.

 

[68000]

So if travel insurance is considered necessary then that leads me suggest that anyone travelling on the Caledonian Sleeper should really have taken out travel insurance.
This then leads me to to wonder - is CS that unreliable ?.
If CS is that unreliable then book a flight instead of trying to use the sleeper. At least with a flight there are bound to be many alternatives flights available.
Even with insurance the original plans are still compromised.
For the cost the sleeper needs to have something to justify it over alternatives - perhaps reliability is not one of the advantages.

Note that if insurance companies start specifically excluding Caledonian Sleeper from their cover then that is an indication of how unreliable they are and therefore should be avoided. I do not think we are at that stage though. From my recollections an annual travel insurance policy covers all PRE-BOOKED transport (not a lift to the airport in your mates car). So cover is likely sound.

+

I suppose to boil this down.

If a prospective traveller considers the risk of itinerary drift to be too great or too damaging then don't travel. That is where I come from. It does not matter what the insurance covers really because you are still left with a plan in tatters. Leading to wasted time (holiday leave) as a minimum.

For me on my longer travels I would insert a day or two after a significant travel leg and have lower priority plans for those days. In my case this would be after a 12 hour flight a couple of nights in hotel before onward travel by sleeper train. That is OK for a longer holiday but for a zip up the UK mainland on a sleeper train for a weekend / few days away I am not going to pad it out with contingency.

So the question is.
Should we view the Caledonian Sleeper as something too unreliable to use ?.
It does not matter about insurance as that will not PREVENT service perturbation.

---

Are we drifting off topic enough to warrant a separate thread ?.

Travel insurance is recommended for any holiday where you have hotels and other connecting forms of travel whether that holiday is using aircraft, trains, buses or cars

 

[Gonzoiku]

All this talk of travel insurance may not just be off topic, it may be off target too. I checked my policy, and the definition of a trip wholly within UK is that it must be of at least two nights duration. That tallies with a previous policy which required a hotel booking of at least one night absent any foreign travel. Either way, a single CS trip is unlikely to be covered - check your policy carefully.

GZ

 

[Caleb2010]

Does anyone know why, for the next 4 weeks or so the Highlander is only splitting/joining into/from 2 portions at Edinburgh!
Mon,Wed,Fr am: Inverness and Aberdeen
Tue,Thur,Sat am: Inverness and Fort William.
With that evenings departures doing the same!
The CS Website cites Engineering works, but it doesn’t seem to be right, though I may be wrong!

And no replacement service!!

 

[Travelmonkey]

Does anyone know why, for the next 4 weeks or so the Highlander is only splitting/joining into/from 2 portions at Edinburgh!
Mon,Wed,Fr am: Inverness and Aberdeen
Tue,Thur,Sat am: Inverness and Fort William.
With that evenings departures doing the same!
The CS Website cites Engineering works, but it doesn’t seem to be right, though I may be wrong!

And no replacement service!!

More trains than usual needing repairs, we all know the CAF units are troublesome so it'll give chance for better overhauls,

There is also some ECML diversions coming up, I'm booked in a seated coach for one of them, can you upgrade to a room on the day or should I just sit back and relax?

 

[Scotrail84]

Does anyone know why, for the next 4 weeks or so the Highlander is only splitting/joining into/from 2 portions at Edinburgh!
Mon,Wed,Fr am: Inverness and Aberdeen
Tue,Thur,Sat am: Inverness and Fort William.
With that evenings departures doing the same!
The CS Website cites Engineering works, but it doesn’t seem to be right, though I may be wrong!

And no replacement service!!

It's because the coaches are in dire need of an overhaul. I doubt they'll get them all done 4 weeks though.

Thats a bit naughty if they're using that excuse.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm booked in a seated coach for one of them, can you upgrade to a room on the day or should I just sit back and relax?

I've heard people ask the on train staff for an on the day upgrade in the past. Clearly it depends on availability. I think they were quoted over £200 though.

 

[D6130]

Does anyone know why, for the next 4 weeks or so the Highlander is only splitting/joining into/from 2 portions at Edinburgh!
Mon,Wed,Fr am: Inverness and Aberdeen
Tue,Thur,Sat am: Inverness and Fort William.
With that evenings departures doing the same!
The CS Website cites Engineering works, but it doesn’t seem to be right, though I may be wrong!

And no replacement service!!

See post #17,087 for a possible explanation.