• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Caledonian Sleeper

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
4,380
If anything a lounge at Crewe is not unreasonable to ask. I've used the sleeper at Crewe a few times this year, and by my estimates there's always a solid 15-25 passengers each time - more than what I have experienced at Leuchars, which also has a lounge, and Dundee & Perth where I have been the only one on several occassions heading northbound.
Crewe has nowhere near that many people boarding the Highlander each night.
As for overall capacity to expand the service, it is ironic that while the bulk of the demand is London, that Euston station's design is the very thing preventing the service expanding even more since the sleeper sells out more often these days - though I would I argue that the Mk5s design reducing the capacity vs an Mk3 is partly to blame!
It's largely the same as all rooms can be occupied by two people now; so 1st Class (Club and Double) capacity has effectively increased. I did post a comparison ages back, but can't find it.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

185143

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2013
Messages
5,333
Crewe has nowhere near that many people boarding the Highlander each night.

It's largely the same as all rooms can be occupied by two people now; so 1st Class (Club and Double) capacity has effectively increased. I did post a comparison ages back, but can't find it.
Can be occupied by two people, but how many actually are?
 

HS2isgood

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
302
Location
Madrid, Spain
How many cars does each Highlander portion convey? Are Lowlander sections still 6 sleepers, 1 club and 1 seats? It's interesting how most sleepers in Europe have a higher amount of seated coaches lol
 

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
4,380
How many cars does each Highlander portion convey? Are Lowlander sections still 6 sleepers, 1 club and 1 seats? It's interesting how most sleepers in Europe have a higher amount of seated coaches lol
Each portion (EDB, INV) is:
- 5 sleeper cars
- 1 PRM sleeper car
- 1 lounge / club car
- 1 seat / brake coach

Except the Glasgow portion which is:
- 4 sleeper cars
- 2 PRM sleeper cars
- 1 lounge / club car
- 1 seat / brake coach

The Aberdeen and Fort William are half sets, with configuration depending on the time of year:
ABD winter:
- 3 sleeper cars
- 1 PRM sleeper car
- 1 lounge / club car
- 1 seat / brake coach
FTW winter:
- 1 sleeper car
- 1 PRM sleeper car
- (+1 lounge / club, and 1 seat / brake, added / removed at Edinburgh)

In summer:
ABD:
- 1 sleeper car
- 1 PRM sleeper car
- 1 lounge / club car
- 1 seat / brake coach

FTW winter:
- 3 sleeper cars
- 1 PRM sleeper car
- (+1 lounge / club, and 1 seat / brake, added / removed at Edinburgh)

These are the maximum lengths, trains may run with fewer coaches because of maintenance / demand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Genuine question FWIW. I'd imagine plenty are occupied by two, but a not insignificant number only in solo use.
Most are occupied by two people.
 

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
4,380
That suggests very few business travellers. Which you would think is a core market.
Was. There is much more leisure travel now, and much less business travel (since Covid). Business travel was always mostly on the Lowlander though (and a bit on the Aberdeen).
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
4,479
I remember doing this argument a while back.
The mk5s have a higher capacity if you take into account a policy that could also have been implemented on the mk3s - but then base your comparison on it not being implemented on the mk3s.
Thus you discover that you have more oranges than you used to have apples.
 

Wolf475

New Member
Joined
10 Nov 2024
Messages
2
Location
Glasgow
Hi - I'm looking for some information on Sleeper services from either Crewe/Preston to Glasgow but I'm finding the booking website confusing and it appears not all stations are serviced? As their live chat is closed at the moment I thought I would try my luck here.

Caledonian Sleeper train to Fort William
23:45Crewe (CRE)
00:30Preston (Lancs)
04:50Edinburgh
05:48Glasgow Queen Street
06:06Dalmuir
06:16Dumbarton Central (DBC)

Does this service set down passengers on Glasgow Queen Street or would I have to travel to Dumbarton. The CS website won't quote me a price to Glasgow.

Thanks for any assistance.
 

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
4,380
Hi - I'm looking for some information on Sleeper services from either Crewe/Preston to Glasgow but I'm finding the booking website confusing and it appears not all stations are serviced? As their live chat is closed at the moment I thought I would try my luck here.

Caledonian Sleeper train to Fort William
23:45Crewe (CRE)
00:30Preston (Lancs)
04:50Edinburgh
05:48Glasgow Queen Street
06:06Dalmuir
06:16Dumbarton Central (DBC)

Does this service set down passengers on Glasgow Queen Street or would I have to travel to Dumbarton. The CS website won't quote me a price to Glasgow.

Thanks for any assistance.
No, it does not set down at Glasgow Queen Street
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
17,796
Location
Epsom
Hi - I'm looking for some information on Sleeper services from either Crewe/Preston to Glasgow but I'm finding the booking website confusing and it appears not all stations are serviced? As their live chat is closed at the moment I thought I would try my luck here.

Caledonian Sleeper train to Fort William
23:45Crewe (CRE)
00:30Preston (Lancs)
04:50Edinburgh
05:48Glasgow Queen Street
06:06Dalmuir
06:16Dumbarton Central (DBC)

Does this service set down passengers on Glasgow Queen Street or would I have to travel to Dumbarton.
Dalmuir is the first place you can disembark, and is closer to Glasgow than Dumbarton.

I'm doing that myself in a few weeks... Highlander to Dalmuir for the early morning turf-out, local train to Glasgow, breakfast at the Central Hotel, full day bashing on a Roundabout ticket, Lowlander back from Central the same evening.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,597
That suggests very few business travellers. Which you would think is a core market.

Business travellers generally either fly / hotel or day train / hotel. Getting off a sleeper and then doing a days work is not usually a combination that finds people in peak form. And when the company is paying…
 

cb a1

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2015
Messages
455
Business travellers generally either fly / hotel or day train / hotel. Getting off a sleeper and then doing a days work is not usually a combination that finds people in peak form. And when the company is paying…
I use the sleeper maybe four times a year when I've a days work to do in London. Sleeper down, days work, sleeper back. I have done all options and the Sleeper is easily the most convenient, comfortable and gives me most time in London.
Flying is not particularly convenient and requires getting up at stupid o'clock and / or getting home at stupid o'clock.
Day train and hotel down is OK, but less convenient and for the return I would get home after midnight and not have any time to socialise with any colleagues or friends.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,660
Location
SW London
Dalmuir is the first place you can disembark, and is closer to Glasgow than Dumbarton.

I'm doing that myself in a few weeks... Highlander to Dalmuir for the early morning turf-out, local train to Glasgow, breakfast at the Central Hotel, full day bashing on a Roundabout ticket, Lowlander back from Central the same evening.
Why iuse the Highlander? - According to SPT's website you can't use a Roundabout ticket before 9am anyway, except at weekends (when you wouldn't be able to use the sleepers in both directions for one day's bashing)
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,364
Business travellers generally either fly / hotel or day train / hotel. Getting off a sleeper and then doing a days work is not usually a combination that finds people in peak form. And when the company is paying…
It’s being promoted by my employer as an option over flights
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,597
I use the sleeper maybe four times a year when I've a days work to do in London. Sleeper down, days work, sleeper back. I have done all options and the Sleeper is easily the most convenient, comfortable and gives me most time in London.
Flying is not particularly convenient and requires getting up at stupid o'clock and / or getting home at stupid o'clock.
Day train and hotel down is OK, but less convenient and for the return I would get home after midnight and not have any time to socialise with any colleagues or friends.

It’s being promoted by my employer as an option over flights

Of course, there are exceptions. But of all the people I know who travel to Scotland on business (railway and otherwise), the sleeper is very much the minority, and that is borne out by CS’s own data on business use.

Anecdotally - obviously - but my employer doesn’t mind, and lets me choose. I day train and hotel, as that works much better for me; I leave work in London normalish time, work on the train for a bit, arrive in Glasgow for a nightcap at the Pot Still, decent nights sleep (impossible for me on the sleeper), up normal time, gym or walk around Glasgow as it wakes up, breakfast, then in the office for 0830. Finish up mid afternoon, on 1538, work for a couple of hours, home by 2100.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
17,796
Location
Epsom
Why iuse the Highlander? - According to SPT's website you can't use a Roundabout ticket before 9am anyway, except at weekends (when you wouldn't be able to use the sleepers in both directions for one day's bashing)
This way I can get two full Sleeper rakes in for haulage, plus the additional two carriages on the Fort Bill portion and a 73 + 66.

By the time I've got from Dalmuir to Central, had breakfast and bought the Roundabout it'll be close enough to 09.00 that I won't have wasted any time...
 

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
9,588
Location
Croydon
Of course, there are exceptions. But of all the people I know who travel to Scotland on business (railway and otherwise), the sleeper is very much the minority, and that is borne out by CS’s own data on business use.

Anecdotally - obviously - but my employer doesn’t mind, and lets me choose. I day train and hotel, as that works much better for me; I leave work in London normalish time, work on the train for a bit, arrive in Glasgow for a nightcap at the Pot Still, decent nights sleep (impossible for me on the sleeper), up normal time, gym or walk around Glasgow as it wakes up, breakfast, then in the office for 0830. Finish up mid afternoon, on 1538, work for a couple of hours, home by 2100.
I think it all revolves around how well someone can sleep on the train. I seem to be able to sleep very well - even in a seat on a 12 hour flight I can totally miss eight or nine hours. So for me the sleeper would be absolutely ideal if someone else was paying.
 

cb a1

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2015
Messages
455
Of course, there are exceptions. But of all the people I know who travel to Scotland on business (railway and otherwise), the sleeper is very much the minority, and that is borne out by CS’s own data on business use.

Anecdotally - obviously - but my employer doesn’t mind, and lets me choose. I day train and hotel, as that works much better for me; I leave work in London normalish time, work on the train for a bit, arrive in Glasgow for a nightcap at the Pot Still, decent nights sleep (impossible for me on the sleeper), up normal time, gym or walk around Glasgow as it wakes up, breakfast, then in the office for 0830. Finish up mid afternoon, on 1538, work for a couple of hours, home by 2100.
Biggest challenge for me for using the Sleeper is there being any berths available.
Knowledge of business travel is often on shorter timescales than leisure travel, so I'm not surprised it's a minority market for the Sleeper.
 

Scotrail84

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,977
Crewe has nowhere near that many people boarding the Highlander each night.

It's largely the same as all rooms can be occupied by two people now; so 1st Class (Club and Double) capacity has effectively increased. I did post a comparison ages back, but can't find it.

In fairness Crewe patronage can vary greatly, one night there may only be 2 or 3 passengers boarding but then next night there can be 15-20 folk spread across the 3 services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

How many cars does each Highlander portion convey? Are Lowlander sections still 6 sleepers, 1 club and 1 seats? It's interesting how most sleepers in Europe have a higher amount of seated coaches lol
At the moment theres 7 coaches out of traffic so the Highlander only has 15 vehicles on a Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday but has 16 on Friday/Sunday and Monday, this is both North and Southbound.

There is of course the issue of the coach that was derailed at Wembley. That may be out of traffic just now as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Business travellers generally either fly / hotel or day train / hotel. Getting off a sleeper and then doing a days work is not usually a combination that finds people in peak form. And when the company is paying…
There are still a few regular passengers who travel for business purposes but this has certainly declined in recent years, mainly since the introduction of the new coaches added in with unreliability of arriving on time as well as the increase in prices.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I remember doing this argument a while back.
The mk5s have a higher capacity if you take into account a policy that could also have been implemented on the mk3s - but then base your comparison on it not being implemented on the mk3s.
Thus you discover that you have more oranges than you used to have apples.


I think its 20 people per coach based on 2 couples per berth.
 
Last edited:

Mogz

On Moderation
Joined
20 May 2019
Messages
635
Having travelled extensively on the continent, I think they’re missing a trick by not having couchettes as a budget option to boost capacity.

I’ve been around long enough to remember the £19 “bargain berths” that were available in the 2000s but given the demand your budget option is now a seat or nothing.

Even with four bunks to a couchette,
(I imagine our loading gauge would be insufficient for 6) you would probably get 4 beds into 1.5 x the space of existing sleeper cabins.

I understand that GB has never had couchettes at any point in history, though?
 

Scotrail84

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,977
Having travelled extensively on the continent, I think they’re missing a trick by not having couchettes as a budget option to boost capacity.

I’ve been around long enough to remember the £19 “bargain berths” that were available in the 2000s but given the demand your budget option is now a seat or nothing.

Even with four bunks to a couchette,
(I imagine our loading gauge would be insufficient for 6) you would probably get 4 beds into 1.5 x the space of existing sleeper cabins.

I understand that GB has never had couchettes at any point in history, though?
Was it not something to do with H+S laws that prevented these being an option? They wanted pods but this was rejected.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,364
Having travelled extensively on the continent, I think they’re missing a trick by not having couchettes as a budget option to boost capacity.

I’ve been around long enough to remember the £19 “bargain berths” that were available in the 2000s but given the demand your budget option is now a seat or nothing.

Even with four bunks to a couchette,
(I imagine our loading gauge would be insufficient for 6) you would probably get 4 beds into 1.5 x the space of existing sleeper cabins.

I understand that GB has never had couchettes at any point in history, though?
Why would that boost revenue, though?
 

Indigo Soup

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
1,485
Can be occupied by two people, but how many actually are?
Given that they're priced in a way that makes sole occupancy very expensive, it's hardly a surprise that there isn't much sole occupancy.
Even with four bunks to a couchette,
(I imagine our loading gauge would be insufficient for 6) you would probably get 4 beds into 1.5 x the space of existing sleeper cabins.
My maths gets 32 couchette passengers, basically reinventing the compartment coach. You might squeeze a fourth compartment into a 23m vehicle for 36 passengers, but I'm not convinced.
There was an issue with longitudinal pods. That wouldn't affect transverse couchettes (traditional layout).
Those were airline style lie-flat beds that Serco were calling (and still do call) pods, rather than the pod hotel style ones in the new Nightjet stock.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,525
Location
Wales
Why would that boost revenue, though?
They're more dense - the standing space in a compartment is wasted space, you get one standing space per four berths rather than one standing space per two berths in a conventional sleeper. Roughly a 50% uplift.
 

Top