Caledonian Sleeper

[A S Leib]

Is there any chance of the Highlander serving Watford Junction again (although even in 2019 I think it was northbound only)? Even from Northampton it's around the same length's drive as Birmingham International, and with a lot of luggage driving might be preferable to dealing with Euston.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is there any chance of the Highlander serving Watford Junction again (although even in 2019 I think it was northbound only)? Even from Northampton it's around the same length's drive as Birmingham International, and with a lot of luggage driving might be preferable to dealing with Euston.

No chance of that happening.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sharing of course is something you don't even have the option for any more in the UK.

Of course you do! Loads of people share on every sleeper. They happen to know each other of course.

More seriously, I think this is under recognised in this thread. In my experience, a majority of the cabins are occupied by people sharing. Because of the cabin based pricing, this makes it quite a reasonable option compared to, say, flying and a hotel. Most of the ‘too expensive’ comments on here are from those who travel alone, and obviously the sleeper is more expensive for a solo traveller. But perhaps CS know their market?

I strongly suspect that the choice of Birmingham International rather than New Street is connected with either (a) a lack of pathways through the latter and/or (b) the frequency of overnight engineering possessions on its approaches. Stopping at International enables the train to be pathed via the Grand Junction line.

Isn't it platform lengths?

It’s both.

FWIW, AIUI the numbers stack up considerably in favour of International compared to Crewe, based on both those already travelling from Crewe, and the much greater catchment area.

 

[Krokodil]

Of course you do! Loads of people share on every sleeper. They happen to know each other of course.

Yet another tax on single people then.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet another tax on single people then.

Not at all. I know of many single people who catch the sleeper - sharing with a friend.

 

[185143]

Yet another tax on single people then.

In fairness to CS, and I say this as a solo traveller, a hotel room costs the same if you are alone or share it. Yet you get a slight discount on a Sleeper room.

 

[Krokodil]

Not at all. I know of many single people who catch the sleeper - sharing with a friend.

Because we all know someone who wants to gallivant off to Fort William on my rest day pattern.

In fairness to CS, and I say this as a solo traveller, a hotel room costs the same if you are alone or share it. Yet you get a slight discount on a Sleeper room.

Many hotels often do have single rooms at slightly cheaper rates than doubles. Then there's hostels - I've had some wonderful experiences around Europe, met all sorts of people. Including in the West Highlands and in Inverness. In Europe I can book a berth in a couchette, or a single berth in a sleeper compartment without being forced to pay for the use of the other berths. Can't do that in the UK any more.

 

[35B]

I don't think that they've got Grantham in mind somehow. Crewe is handy for Manchester, Liverpool and the West Midlands - if you're in Wolves you're halfway between Crewe and International, time-wise and Crewe is in the direction you actually want to be travelling, unlike doubling back to International.

Why would someone from almost anywhere bar local villages drive to Crewe in order to catch a train? Anyone from any population centre in the North West would just get a train to Crewe.

And if you don’t actually live in the population centre?

Especially late at night or early in the morning, I’d far rather travel through Birmingham International. The access to motorways is good, and there’s a large catchment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other thing about Crewe is that while the northbound call is late but acceptable, the southbound is at about 4am which most people won't accept. Brum would be about an hour and a bit later which is still early but not as ridiculous.

Also presumably Preston is staying, not a long distance from Crewe?

That said I can't see why they can't fit in both.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because we all know someone who wants to gallivant off to Fort William on my rest day pattern.

Of course not. But then I’d suggest that people travelling to Fort William alone, who want to take the sleeper, but don‘t want to pay the price of the sleeper, is a rather small market compared to the rest of the market for sleeper travel to Fort William. The railway can‘t be, and never has been, perfect for every journey.

 

[JonathanH]

The other thing about Crewe is that while the northbound call is late but acceptable, the southbound is at about 4am which most people won't accept.

Nearer to 5.30am actually just as the day trains are starting.

 

[InOban]

6 and 12 at Crewe can take the sleeper, 6 is the best platform as its straight. Remember though, if B/ham goes ahead it will still have to call at Crewe to change drivers anyway.

I thought that the driver swap was at Crewe

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nearer to 5.30am actually just as the day trains are starting.

Still pretty early. I guess International
would be around 0630? Which is a reasonably civilised time.

 

[irp]

It's not Birmingham New Street though, its Birmingham International Airport station, miles from Birmingham itself ad various other placers that connect at Crewe. At the moment Crewe is a crew change point and will continue to be even if Birmingham stops happen, Crewe will cease to be a passenger call though. It doesn't make sense at all.

Having looked at the current timings to Rugby (2222 pass), and living in Coventry, I think I would still prefer to head to Euston earlier in the evening, rather than get myself to Birmingham International [which is only 10 mins away on the rails, but it's a 40 minute walk to Cov Station for me ahead of that] for a late (probably 23??) connection to the Sleeper. Euston has more options should the sleeper be delayed for "refreshments", esp later in the evening as well, and of course there is also the entire "experience" thing - I consider the Journey as part of the Holiday

 

[Scotrail84]

I thought that the driver swap was at Crewe

It does, thats what my post says.

 

[Krokodil]

And if you don’t actually live in the population centre?

I don't live in a major population centre. Believe it or not, the North West of England and North Wales have regional services to most towns. Some of those service even turn up, so long as it isn't a Sunday (when the sleeper doesn't call anyway). Most people (who aren't within walking distance) will drive to their local station and get the train from there to/from Crewe. There is a wide range of routes raditating out of Crewe, the whole reason the place exists is that it is a major railway junction. From Birmingham International you've got Birmingham, Coventry and not a lot of other places other than those which are already just as well served from Euston. The number of people who would drive from Grantham to Birmingham International (I bet parking isn't cheap) in order to catch a train is probably in the region of one.

Also presumably Preston is staying

I didn't think that passengers could board or alight at Preston.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The number of people who would drive from Grantham to Birmingham International (I bet parking isn't cheap) in order to catch a train is probably in the region of one.

I think anyone in Grantham wanting the sleeper would just head to King's Cross and get the tube.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't think that passengers could board or alight at Preston.

They can. It's Carlisle where they can't.

 

[BRX]

I know someone who semi-regularly uses the sleeper to get between Oxford and Inverness. They either change at Crewe or just go via Euston.

I can see how a Birmingham International stop would be very attractive to them. A direct train from Oxford, that takes about an hour. To Crewe is over two hours and requires a change of trains. Euston is going to take more than an hour and require crossing London.

BHI seems by far the best option looking at a combination of (a) amount of hassle, (b) the time at which you'd need to leave Oxford, and (c) the time at which you'd be able to board the sleeper and get to bed.

 

[Krokodil]

They can. It's Carlisle where they can't.

Oh yes, I see. Preston really is an antisocial time though. Take it from a shift worker, there's one heck of a difference between an 04:00 alarm and an 05:00 one.

I know someone who semi-regularly uses the sleeper to get between Oxford and Inverness. They either change at Crewe or just go via Euston.

I can see how a Birmingham International stop would be very attractive to them. A direct train from Oxford, that takes about an hour. To Crewe is over two hours and requires a change of trains. Euston is going to take more than an hour and require crossing London.

BHI seems by far the best option looking at a combination of (a) amount of hassle, (b) the time at which you'd need to leave Oxford, and (c) the time at which you'd be able to board the sleeper and get to bed.

I can see that would be attractive to them. They probably don't gain much in the way of time though. It's not so good for those further north though, who end up travelling an hour in the wrong direction, followed by an additional hour to get them back to where they started.

 

[BRX]

I think the idea that the Birmingham International stop would be instead of (rather than additional to) the Crewe stop may have been invented on this thread, rather than being what is actually being considered, though?

 

[Krokodil]

I think the idea that the Birmingham International stop would be instead of (rather than additional to) the Crewe stop may have been invented on this thread, rather than being what is actually being considered, though?

I hope that you're right.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think the idea that the Birmingham International stop would be instead of (rather than additional to) the Crewe stop may have been invented on this thread, rather than being what is actually being considered, though?

The original plan was to drop Crewe as a passenger stop and replace it with Birmingham International. Whether this is still the case, or indeed if Birmingham is still going to happen remains to be seen.

 

[35B]

I think anyone in Grantham wanting the sleeper would just head to King's Cross and get the tube.

I do live in Grantham, have used the sleeper, and my choice of boarding point or destination would depend on a number of factors. Life outside travel might well tip it one way rather than the other - and I’m not a fan of boarding late at night.

However, my core point is that I live 70-80 miles from the two boarding points being discussed and based on personal knowledge of travel to both, would consider one but not the other as being viable.

A midlands pickup is not a bad idea, and one that is highly road accessible is a very sound idea.

 

[Statto]

I dislike the idea of dropping Crewe as a passenger stop, the sleeper calls in were connections to & from the sleeper can still be made without overly long wait, Preston is a lot bleaker with longer waits for anyone needing a connecting train.

 

[Scotrail84]

I dislike the idea of dropping Crewe as a passenger stop, the sleeper calls in were connections to & from the sleeper can still be made without overly long wait, Preston is a lot bleaker with longer waits for anyone needing a connecting train.

Theres zero passenger facilities at Birmingham Int that that time of night/morning.

We are talking about the Lowlander North calling there some time between 01:10 and 01:40 depending on what day of the week it is.

Highlander Northbound would be a bit more reasonable at around 22:50 - 23:10 depending.

Lowlander South you are looking at a 5am (ish) arrival at Birmingham Int which is already too late for check in for the early morning departures, add in delays to the service and your bang in trouble. Thats a pointless sleeper journey from Glasgow or Edinburgh anyway, Lucky if you're in the bed for 5 hours and even less sleep.

Highlander Southbound would arriving somewhere around 6am, by which time you've missed the early morning departures from Int airport. Again, any delays would screw you over.

Dropping Crewe is a bad idea in my honest opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we're talking about replacing Crewe with Intl, it's the Highlander that would stop, not the Lowlander. The Lowlander does not have a passenger stop at Crewe.

Flight connections are irrelevant. Birmingham airport is a medium regional airport which doesn't have much that Edinburgh and Glasgow don't have between them.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'd assumed from your previous messages you wouldn't catch the Sleeper in a million years, so I'm not sure you're in their target market

I don't dislike the sleeper, I just personally would never use for business or leisure travel unless I had no other option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2024 ==

If we're talking about replacing Crewe with Intl, it's the Highlander that would stop, not the Lowlander. The Lowlander does not have a passenger stop at Crewe.

Flight connections are irrelevant. Birmingham airport is a medium regional airport which doesn't have much that Edinburgh and Glasgow don't have between them.

Yes, I'm well aware of that.

Flight connections are absolutely relevant. Why else would they choose to serve Int station and not New Street then? It's pointless if they don't have flight connections in mind. Its obvious that they feel theres a market for people travelling by air from Birmingham.

 

[JonathanH]

Flight connections are absolutely relevant. Why else would they choose to serve Int station and not New Street then? It's pointless if they don't have flight connections in mind. Its obvious that they feel theres a market for people travelling by air from Birmingham.

Trying to thread the sleeper through New Street is a whole different challenge to getting it to run via Bescot and Aston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trying to thread the sleeper through New Street is a whole different challenge to getting it to run via Bescot and Aston.

Is it a challenge at that time of night? New St is hardly heaving at 11pm. Well, it is one day a week - Saturday - but that's conveniently the day it doesn't run!

The availability of diversionary routes is probably more significant.