Caledonian Sleeper

[JamieL]

Is this anecdote or do you have some kind of numbers?

Each time this comes up (the idea that the sleeper is super-unreliable) I go and look at https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk.

In the past the argument has often been about sleeper vs flying, and I've gone and had a look at really it's just as likely that your flight will be cancelled or delayed.

Anyway, you can look at the last 4 months of data for the Fort William to Euston sleeper here.

I've chosen that one as it seems the most vulnerable to disruption - the final arrival time is liable to pick up delays from any of the three highland portions.

That's seen one cancellation within the past 4 months. It's been more than 5 mins late 6 times (out of 72 journeys). Only two of those more than an hour late.

Or the Edinburgh to Euston one here.

There we can see that yesterday's was one of two cancellations in the past four months. Aside from that, there are only two days it arrived late, and the worst of those was by 18 minutes.

I don't think performance is as bad as is often made out. If you choose to travel on the sleeper, then in the vast majority of cases you'll arrive on time without significant problems. Maybe in one in ten journeys you'll experience a delay but it mostly won't be a dramatic one. The chance of your train being cancelled outright is probably in the order of 1 in 100.

I don't want to seem like I'm saying the mk5s are great - I agree that there are lots of shortcomings in the design & build quality and they clearly aren't as robust as what they replaced - just that the day to day performance isn't quite as dreadful as might appear to people just reading this thread.

I agree with this. There is a lot of negativity about the CS on this thread and not all of it is grounded in fact. The overall experience is good and the service is reliable IMHO.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I agree with this. There is a lot of negativity about the CS on this thread and not all of it is grounded in fact. The overall experience is good and the service is reliable IMHO.

Sometimes moaning for the sake of moaning, it's the same for the rose tinted glasses for the legacy stock that was replaced by 80x units, with the sleeper it's a case of not enough contingency. But unlike another operator who's been getting a battering on another post at least they have been making alternative travel arrangements with other TOCs

 

[leightonbd]

Whilst I’m a huge fan of the sleeper, three cancellations in five days is bound to induce nerves, ahead of a trip (I’m booked to travel to Edinburgh on Thursday). This is simply because with the sleeper there is really no plan B - at least if your plans, like mine, feature a day which doesn’t end until after 6 pm (so v. little scope to switch to a same-day train, even with early notification).

It doesn’t go wrong often, I agree, but when it does, rather like nuclear power, the impact is catastrophic. (Old joke; apologies to fans of nuclear).

I don’t quite know what the operator can do about this: it’s hard to give full information (‘yes, the stock is temperamental; it’s not easy’) whilst simultaneously promoting the service. It would be helpful to know if these incidents are all the same set with a recurring issue, or three different issues.

 

[PG]

Does anyone know if the Mk5s have any kind of monitoring kit, e.g. Perpetuum or similar fitted? Since ScotRail use(d) them on the Class 334 EMUs you'd hope that any learning would be shared with CS now that they are in common ownership.

 

[BRX]

Whilst I’m a huge fan of the sleeper, three cancellations in five days is bound to induce nerves, ahead of a trip (I’m booked to travel to Edinburgh on Thursday). This is simply because with the sleeper there is really no plan B - at least if your plans, like mine, feature a day which doesn’t end until after 6 pm (so v. little scope to switch to a same-day train, even with early notification).

It doesn’t go wrong often, I agree, but when it does, rather like nuclear power, the impact is catastrophic.

Agreed, although the same is true of any train that's the last connection of the day. I note that the last train of the day from London to Glasgow has been cancelled three times in the past month.

And it's certainly not unknown for air travellers to get stranded overnight as a result of cancellations.

 

[Ianmel1969]

Just used the Sunday night Inverness to Euston sleeper and it was a bit mixed. Main pluses were that it was bang on time, the staff were great and I did manage to sleep ok despite there being no heating in the coach I was in. The shower door wouldn't shut properly and apparently all the pull out shelves have been removed due to a design fault, so it was a bit awkward trying to eat breakfast in the room. I would use them again though as it was a mostly positive experience.

 

[paul1609]

Agreed, although the same is true of any train that's the last connection of the day. I note that the last train of the day from London to Glasgow has been cancelled three times in the past month.

And it's certainly not unknown for air travellers to get stranded overnight as a result of cancellations.

Id say that its far more likely that your sleeper is cancelled or doesnt make it to the final destination than you are stranded by a cancelled plane. The practicality of travelling from Kent to the West Coast of Scotland was such that I flew many more times than I caught the sleeper but I only never made it once by plane due to heavy snow. I had one where it was diverted to Prestwick with a coach back to Glasgow and one BA flight southbound which was cancelled but I was rebooked on Easyjet. The sleeper on the other hand... and my experiences predated the MK5s!

 

[Scotrail84]

Does anyone know if the Mk5s have any kind of monitoring kit, e.g. Perpetuum or similar fitted? Since ScotRail use(d) them on the Class 334 EMUs you'd hope that any learning would be shared with CS now that they are in common ownership.

Yes there is, its not called that but there is a monitoring system.

 

[JModulo]

Yes there is, its not called that but there is a monitoring system.

Yes, also provided by CAF so take from that what you will...

 

[Scotrail84]

Yes, also provided by CAF so take from that what you will...

Probably doesn't work very well, like the coaches.

 

[BRX]

Id say that its far more likely that your sleeper is cancelled or doesnt make it to the final destination than you are stranded by a cancelled plane. The practicality of travelling from Kent to the West Coast of Scotland was such that I flew many more times than I caught the sleeper but I only never made it once by plane due to heavy snow. I had one where it was diverted to Prestwick with a coach back to Glasgow and one BA flight southbound which was cancelled but I was rebooked on Easyjet. The sleeper on the other hand... and my experiences predated the MK5s!

Aside from being anecdata, this is all apples and oranges, unless we are going to look at some real-world statistics that look at alternative travel methods that at least partly match the particular advantages that the night train can offer, which are the advantages that would lead you to choose it in the first place. We've heard many times before that your particular journey from Kent to the West Highlands didn't work all that well on the sleeper, but most people who use it regularly use it because it works for their particular journey, and that usually involves a starting or ending point in London.

Going north it lets you leave central London late in the evening. That's very useful in certain circumstances. It comes with a small risk of it going wrong, of course. If you wanted to compare the risk of a similar plane journey going wrong, you'd be looking at planes leaving late in the evening, and for most CS destinations that would mean taking the last flight of the day. In any scenario where you get rebooked onto another flight, by definition you are not being rebooked from the last flight. So, the relevant numbers to look at would be, how often does that last flight of the day get cancelled (heavily delayed to the extent that you lose a proper night's sleep). I don't know the answer to that. My feeling is that the risk of something going seriously wrong with the sleeper is not hugely greater than something going seriously wrong with a plane journey that used the last flight of the day to the intended destination. And, in any case, it would most likely mean you'd have to leave central London significantly earlier in the evening anyway.

 

[Steelman]

I was also on the Inverness - Euston sleeper on Sunday night and my carriage was fine and had heating. The lounge car wasn't very busy but with the prices they charge I settled down to a bottle of wine in my berth and knocked myself out for a decent sleep. Arrival in Euston was a few minutes early. Don't believe all the negative stuff you read about the sleepers and the new stock, when they run well they are superb.

 

[Scotrail84]

I was also on the Inverness - Euston sleeper on Sunday night and my carriage was fine and had heating. The lounge car wasn't very busy but with the prices they charge I settled down to a bottle of wine in my berth and knocked myself out for a decent sleep. Arrival in Euston was a few minutes early. Don't believe all the negative stuff you read about the sleepers and the new stock, when they run well they are superb.

They are not superb in the slightest imo. They are uncomfortable, cold, noisy and riddled with faults.

 

[12LDA28C]

They are not superb in the slightest imo. They are uncomfortable, cold, noisy and riddled with faults.

And yet others clearly disagree, as seen above. Try not to confuse your opinion with fact.

 

[Struner]

Im 5 years out of date with the sleeper now, but then 95% of the passengers were catching it as an experience. Dumbarton will have been chosen as the terminating station because it has a spare platform and also its proximity to the A 82 means that replacement road transport can be provided. For all but Courrour and Rannoch the journeytime will be quicker by road than by train. In fact a lot of the intermediate stations generally normally dont have any sleeper passengers at all. Id used Garelochead as my station and in excess of 25 years Id never seen anybody else get on or off the sleeper there.

“journeytime will be shorter by bus than by train for most destinations”
sleeper got stranded at Dumbarton at something between six & seven in the morning.
& how long would it take to organize coaches to pick up the stranded passengers I wonder.

 

[Bald Rick]

“journeytime will be shorter by bus than by train for most destinations”
sleeper got stranded at Dumbarton at something between six & seven in the morning.
& how long would it take to organize coaches to pick up the stranded passengers I wonder.

It would almost certainly be taxis rather than coaches, given the varying destinations and total number of people on board. So relatively quickly, I’d guess. Every chance that Tyndrum, Bridge of Orchy, Spean Bridge, Roy Bridge and Fort William passengers would have got there earlier than the sleeper even allowing for the taxi wait. I’ve mentioned before on these pages, but I once watched the sleeper go past Dumbarton Travelodge one morning, and was at the top of a mountain next to Ben Nevis before the sleeper even got to Fort William.

I’d be interested to know the breakdown of passengers‘ destinations on the Ft Bill sleeper. At a complete guess, Id say 2/3rds for Ft Bill?

 

[paul1609]

I’d be interested to know the breakdown of passengers‘ destinations on the Ft Bill sleeper. At a complete guess, Id say 2/3rds for Ft Bill?

Id say possibly more than that. Theres an awful lot of experience passengers, international tour groups and "American families" doing the whole route. Surprisingly Courour does quite a lot of packages that must boost its figures but thats probably skewed to the Stalking season. Bridge of Orchy Hotel also does packages and their owners were one of the few regulars I knew. Crianlarich doesnt seem to attract as many passengers as you might expect. Once the train runs in the dark its difficult to say theres definately not many Fort William users of the train service at all.

 

[greatkingrat]

Number of journeys to London Euston in the 2022-23 Origin Destination Matrix

Fort William - 3492
Crianlarich - 237
Helensburgh Upper - 191
Spean Bridge - 117
Dalmuir - 105
Dumbarton Central - 103
Arrochar and Tarbet - 94
Bridge of Orchy - 63
Garelochhead - 63
Corrour - 58
Upper Tyndrum - 35
Roy Bridge - 23
Ardlui - 6

Obviously some of these journeys may have been made by day trains, but it should give a reasonable idea, with about 3/4 of passengers going to Fort William.

 

[jagardner1984]

Number of journeys to London Euston in the 2022-23 Origin Destination Matrix

Fort William - 3492
Crianlarich - 237
Helensburgh Upper - 191
Spean Bridge - 117
Dalmuir - 105
Dumbarton Central - 103
Arrochar and Tarbet - 94
Bridge of Orchy - 63
Garelochhead - 63
Corrour - 58
Upper Tyndrum - 35
Roy Bridge - 23
Ardlui - 6

Obviously some of these journeys may have been made by day trains, but it should give a reasonable idea, with about 3/4 of passengers going to Fort William.

Also worth noting as Dalmuir is really a suburb of Glasgow, a number of those passengers will be displaced from a full GLC sleeper rather than American tourists wanting to explore the Delights of Clydebank at 6 in the morning !

I think I read before it’s a crew change location more than anything else.

 

[Bald Rick]

Number of journeys to London Euston in the 2022-23 Origin Destination Matrix

Fort William - 3492
Crianlarich - 237
Helensburgh Upper - 191
Spean Bridge - 117
Dalmuir - 105
Dumbarton Central - 103
Arrochar and Tarbet - 94
Bridge of Orchy - 63
Garelochhead - 63
Corrour - 58
Upper Tyndrum - 35
Roy Bridge - 23
Ardlui - 6

Obviously some of these journeys may have been made by day trains, but it should give a reasonable idea, with about 3/4 of passengers going to Fort William.

Thanks for that - I guess these numbers are still suppressed a little by post Covid effects. Nevertheless around 12 people per train to Fort William on average (assuming this is northbound figures only).

 

[paul1609]

Also worth noting as Dalmuir is really a suburb of Glasgow, a number of those passengers will be displaced from a full GLC sleeper rather than American tourists wanting to explore the Delights of Clydebank at 6 in the morning !

I think I read before it’s a crew change location more than anything else.

I've occasionally got off the sleeper in Dalmuir to be picked up and taken to the dockyards south of the Clyde. I've never seen another passenger alight there and I've never seen anyone get on at all. It's mostly to change the conductor.
I suspect the figures for Helensburgh Upper are a bit inflated as well probably an estimate as the tickets are issued from Helensburgh Central or Upper. Certainly as far as the sleepers concerned I'd be surprised to learn that it has twice as many passengers as Dumbarton.

 

[Scotrail84]

And yet others clearly disagree, as seen above. Try not to confuse your opinion with fact.

Go and ask any member of sleeper train crew and they will likely tell you how poor the coaching stock is.

 

[JamieL]

Go and ask any member of sleeper train crew and they will likely tell you how poor the coaching stock is.

That doesn't map across to user experience though. There is no doubt there is a lot wrong with our railways - but that doesn't mean they can't deliver a good service.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I've occasionally got off the sleeper in Dalmuir to be picked up and taken to the dockyards south of the Clyde. I've never seen another passenger alight there and I've never seen anyone get on at all. It's mostly to change the conductor.
I suspect the figures for Helensburgh Upper are a bit inflated as well probably an estimate as the tickets are issued from Helensburgh Central or Upper. Certainly as far as the sleepers concerned I'd be surprised to learn that it has twice as many passengers as Dumbarton.

Got on and off several times at Dalmuir in connection with my work (usually, as someone has said, when the Lowlander from Central is full) so we may well be the only two as I’ve never seen anyone else either.

There were half a dozen waiting to get on at Falkirk Grahamston the other night, much to my astonishment

 

[ShadowKnight]

I know this has probably been asked in the last 500 pages of this thread, but why are the seated passengers not allowed to go to the bar car?

 

[sh24]

I know this has probably been asked in the last 500 pages of this thread, but why are the seated passengers not allowed to go to the bar car?

Because it is kept as a benefit for those in sleeper compartments.

 

[Scotrail84]

I know this has probably been asked in the last 500 pages of this thread, but why are the seated passengers not allowed to go to the bar car?

Because the seats are a budget option at £60/£70 and they are restricted to an at seat service only. One of the benefits of buying a berth is access to the lounge car depending on whether you're 1st or std though, if its a very busy service std class berths can also be restricted to room service only for the first hour or two.

 

[leightonbd]

Whilst I’m a huge fan of the sleeper, three cancellations in five days is bound to induce nerves, ahead of a trip (I’m booked to travel to Edinburgh on Thursday). This is simply because with the sleeper there is really no plan B - at least if your plans, like mine, feature a day which doesn’t end until after 6 pm (so v. little scope to switch to a same-day train, even with early notification).

It doesn’t go wrong often, I agree, but when it does, rather like nuclear power, the impact is catastrophic. (Old joke; apologies to fans of nuclear).

I don’t quite know what the operator can do about this: it’s hard to give full information (‘yes, the stock is temperamental; it’s not easy’) whilst simultaneously promoting the service. It would be helpful to know if these incidents are all the same set with a recurring issue, or three different issues.

Well, the journey went fine. 10/10 for the basics of on-time travel and a good sleep, plus friendly helpful staff.

Some travellers may have been disappointed by the text saying ‘no hot food in the club car due to an issue with the water supply’ but I always bring my own supplies anyway. Plus, as I have said elsewhere, a hot food offering feels superfluous on the Lowlander, given its timings.

This business of removing the pull-out shelf in the room, though, is just such a fail. The shelf is very practical if you are eating at all, but more than that, it institutionalises bad design. Surely, over time, they can be reinstalled.

 

[Shrop]

Thanks for that - I guess these numbers are still suppressed a little by post Covid effects. Nevertheless around 12 people per train to Fort William on average (assuming this is northbound figures only).

I must admit to being surprised how low those figures are. I caught the southbound sleeper from FW a few weeks ago, which was at very short notice (ie 5pm on the day of departure). Every seat was reserved so no availability, and I managed to get the very last sleeping berth.
Also, now that Corrour has accommodation in the former signalbox, plus cottages, I'm surprised at the figure of 56. I'd expect the 2023/24 figures (out soon I believe) to show quite a bit of post-Covid growth.

 

[JamieL]

Number of journeys to London Euston in the 2022-23 Origin Destination Matrix

Fort William - 3492
Crianlarich - 237
Helensburgh Upper - 191
Spean Bridge - 117
Dalmuir - 105
Dumbarton Central - 103
Arrochar and Tarbet - 94
Bridge of Orchy - 63
Garelochhead - 63
Corrour - 58
Upper Tyndrum - 35
Roy Bridge - 23
Ardlui - 6

Obviously some of these journeys may have been made by day trains, but it should give a reasonable idea, with about 3/4 of passengers going to Fort William.

These are interesting figures but I do wonder if there is missing data. The Highlander runs south approximately 310 times a year which, based on the numbers above, suggests only an average of 11 people per night board at Fort William? That figure seems remarkably low. Even if you take the total of all the stations listed between Fort William and Helensburgh, this only increases the nightly average to 13 people. That doesn't really tally with my experience on the CS where securing a berth, particularly in the height of the Summer season, can be a nightmare. It would also suggest the train is running almost empty which certainly isn't how it appears when the passengers offload at Euston (the FW portion is normally at the rear upon arrival).

Perhaps the above figures exclude tickets purchased via the CS website?