Caledonian Sleeper

[norbitonflyer]

I had 30 years of using the sleepers on and off from London to Scotland and to a very limited extent the West Country. In all that time I only once shared a sleeper with a stranger and that was on the Aberdeen service. Whilst in theory it happened, in practise in my experience over 100s of trips (admittedly alighting/ joining mostly at intermediate stations) it just didnt happen.

100% of the times I have travelled solo on the sleeper (from Edinburgh) I had to share. A sample of one is, admittedly, not statistically significant.

 

[Lxd2]

I had to share on around 80% of trips I did on the old Caledonian sleeper, Inverness and Fort William routes. All trips were on bargain berths.

 

[14xxDave]

So are we saying that some people are talking through their hats and others have proper experience of this?

 

[Krokodil]

So are we saying that some people are talking through their hats and others have proper experience of this?

Or maybe that people travelling through from London to the final stop have a different experience to those getting on/off at other stations.

 

[xotGD]

Anyone know what's up with this mornings Northbound Highlander, 86 minutes late having been early, the delay was in the Lancaster area?

I just saw "86" and jumped to a very wrong conclusion!

 

[Bill57p9]

I went through a period in 2010 of weekly commuting between London and Glasgow on the sleeper using Bargain Berths.
Didn't have to share and sometimes got upgraded to first.
That said, the Glasgow portion is known to be one of the quieter.

I have shared with strangers on the Highlander a few times back in the day. In one strange coincidence, I shared a cabin with someone who would have been a stranger had we not just shared a dormitory on a week long training course in Inverness.

 

[ruaival]

I went through a period in 2010 of weekly commuting between London and Glasgow on the sleeper using Bargain Berths.
Didn't have to share and sometimes got upgraded to first.
That said, the Glasgow portion is known to be one of the quieter.

I have shared with strangers on the Highlander a few times back in the day. In one strange coincidence, I shared a cabin with someone who would have been a stranger had we not just shared a dormitory on a week long training course in Inverness.

I was introduced to the Sleeper back in BR days with late 70s family holiday trips by Motorail from Crewe to Inverness, and one from Inverness to Brockenhurst near Southampton.

As a family of five - my two sisters and my parents each got a connecting pair of 2nd class cabins to share while I was in the next one down accompanied by a complete stranger. All of these guys were pleasant company but the cabin experience is very much "keep yourself to your self" and while Crewe boarding was after dark even in the Summer the one trip South included restaurant car dinner passing through the Highlands. There was however little waking hours time in the cabin to create challenge scenarios.

I do recall the Inverness to Brockenhurst journey involving dinner, sleep and cooked breakfast all on one train; which will need a Continental trip now if Iwere to repeat the experience

 

[Butts]

I was introduced to the Sleeper back in BR days with late 70s family holiday trips by Motorail from Crewe to Inverness, and one from Inverness to Brockenhurst near Southampton.

As a family of five - my two sisters and my parents each got a connecting pair of 2nd class cabins to share while I was in the next one down accompanied by a complete stranger. All of these guys were pleasant company but the cabin experience is very much "keep yourself to your self" and while Crewe boarding was after dark even in the Summer the one trip South included restaurant car dinner passing through the Highlands. There was however little waking hours time in the cabin to create challenge scenarios.

I do recall the Inverness to Brockenhurst journey involving dinner, sleep and cooked breakfast all on one train; which will need a Continental trip now if Iwere to repeat the experience

Do you remember the aroma of "Pure Gold" from Benson & Hedges pervading the entire Train in those halcyon days ?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Yes - I think the elephant in the room is that the Caledonian sleeper is not serving the same purpose it used to.

Much to the regret of those in the north of Scotland who've been priced off a train that provided a useful service before it was (perhaps justifiably) turned into a tourist experience.

This is misleading.

A Mk3 half-set comprised 3 1st class and 3 standard class sleeper coaches (plus the seated coach and the lounge car)

The 6 sleeper coaches were comprised of a mixture of the following:
SLE - 13 compartments (26 beds)
SLEP (pantry) - 12 compartments (24 beds)
SLED (accessible room) - 11 compartments (I think), 22 beds (I think)

However, it was not possible to sell the 13th room in the SLEs because of uncertainty of what the train formation would be.

So that reduces the capacity to 5 coaches of 24 beds, and 1 (the SLED) of 22 beds - 142 in total.

However, 1st class was solo occupancy, and the beds were folded up and the mattresses stored elsewhere. These coaches therefore only had 12 beds in them.

So that makes for
3 * 1st @ 12 = 36
2 * standard @ 24 = 48
1 * standard @ 22 = 22
Total = 106*

In other words, the number of sellable beds has increased (on the new stock, all rooms are twin / double).


* I think some rooms were used for linen carriage too, and there may sometimes have been more than one SLED (or it may have been in the 1st class section), so it may have been less

FWIW, I don't see why four-bed couchettes wouldn't have been viable. You'd get 32 or 36 beds in one car, depending on spacing and detailed design, and can actually sell them all on a shared basis. You don't get the 'alone in a room with a stranger' thing, because there are four of you, a basis which works perfectly well in hostels, on the European mainland, etc.

Four such cars would give more 'cheap' passengers as the old Standard sleeper plus the seats, leaving room for three cars' worth of luxury sleeping cars. On a very rough calculation, that gives 20 en-suite compartments and three doubles, for a total train capacity of 174 to 190, all in beds, of whom 46 are paying premium fares. Or three couchettes and four sleepers for 160 to 172, with 64 premium fares.

Compare that to 142 (30 seated) on the current stock, or 148 (42 seated, 66 premium fare) on the Mark 2/3 rakes.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Much to the regret of those in the north of Scotland who've been priced off a train that provided a useful service before it was (perhaps justifiably) turned into a tourist experience.


FWIW, I don't see why four-bed couchettes wouldn't have been viable. You'd get 32 or 36 beds in one car, depending on spacing and detailed design, and can actually sell them all on a shared basis. You don't get the 'alone in a room with a stranger' thing, because there are four of you, a basis which works perfectly well in hostels, on the European mainland, etc.

Four such cars would give more 'cheap' passengers as the old Standard sleeper plus the seats, leaving room for three cars' worth of luxury sleeping cars. On a very rough calculation, that gives 20 en-suite compartments and three doubles, for a total train capacity of 174 to 190, all in beds, of whom 46 are paying premium fares. Or three couchettes and four sleepers for 160 to 172, with 64 premium fares.

Compare that to 142 (30 seated) on the current stock, or 148 (42 seated, 66 premium fare) on the Mark 2/3 rakes.

Most likely a mix of seats, couchettes and compartments would happen with an open access operator somehow combining Glasgow or Edinburgh with a stop in the far North. Probably about 12 coaches or whatever easily fits without splitting and joining.

Not going to happen I suspect within the premium offering from Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[14xxDave]

Wasn't there a public consultation about such things as couchettes and it was rejected. People on here are a very small minority of those that use the service so maybe their views are not recorded.

 

[Bald Rick]

Much to the regret of those in the north of Scotland who've been priced off a train that provided a useful service before it was (perhaps justifiably) turned into a tourist experience.


FWIW, I don't see why four-bed couchettes wouldn't have been viable. You'd get 32 or 36 beds in one car, depending on spacing and detailed design, and can actually sell them all on a shared basis. You don't get the 'alone in a room with a stranger' thing, because there are four of you, a basis which works perfectly well in hostels, on the European mainland, etc.

Four such cars would give more 'cheap' passengers as the old Standard sleeper plus the seats, leaving room for three cars' worth of luxury sleeping cars. On a very rough calculation, that gives 20 en-suite compartments and three doubles, for a total train capacity of 174 to 190, all in beds, of whom 46 are paying premium fares. Or three couchettes and four sleepers for 160 to 172, with 64 premium fares.

Compare that to 142 (30 seated) on the current stock, or 148 (42 seated, 66 premium fare) on the Mark 2/3 rakes.

I‘ve posted somewhere - either upthread or on another thread - exactly why 4 bed couchettes wouldn’t be viable. The most you could get into the floorspace of a Mk5 sleeper coach, assuming you want some shared toilets at one end, is 8 x 4 bed cabins, ie 32 beds. This compares to 20 beds in the current layout, split between 4 x classic and 6 x Club. On the Highlander, that one coach will sell for a total of something in the region of £3,500-£4,000 in summer, depending on occupancy, and there will be ancilliary income off most of them in the club car. Therefore to make the same money (and ignoring the fact that the operation incurs a cost per passenger) each of those 4 bed rooms will have to sell for something like £500. Now you might say “£125 each, great”, but you‘d have to be sure that every bed would sell in everyroom, and whilst that might happen in summer, it certainly wouldn‘t in winter.

The fact of the matter is that in this country, most people don‘t want to share with a stranger. I know some people are ok with it, but it is very much the minority, as CS’s research showed.

Most likely a mix of seats, couchettes and compartments would happen with an open access operator somehow combining Glasgow or Edinburgh with a stop in the far North. Probably about 12 coaches or whatever easily fits without splitting and joining.

Not going to happen I suspect within the premium offering from Caledonian Sleeper.

There won’t be open access sleepers in this country, the finances are impossible.

 

[Krokodil]

and whilst that might happen in summer, it certainly wouldn‘t in winter.

Do the existing berths sell out in the winter? I can see why couchettes would perform more poorly in winter than sleeper berths do, I imagine that their clientele would be hikers rather than the deerstalkers who gave the service its nickname.

Ultimately the only way I see any changes in accommodation are if someone shakes the magic money tree to invest in enough extra coaches to add another portion to the Highlander, such that it would become two seperate trains - east (Aberdeen/Inverness) and west (Fort Bill/Oban). There certainly seems to be no shortage of demand. Unfortunately the magic money tree is in desperate need of a rest year. I've got at least another 30 years on the railway, maybe I'll see it before I retire. We live in strange times - who'd have thought when DB withdrew all of its sleepers that OBB would have turned the operation into a thriving business a decade or so later?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Just throwing a thought out there. But would two highlanders (as a suggested above) be better than the current 1 Highlander and 1 Lowlander? Does the Lowlander sell out as much as the Highlander?

 

[gabrielhj07]

Just throwing a thought out there. But would two highlanders (as a suggested above) be better than the current 1 Highlander and 1 Lowlander? Does the Lowlander sell out as much as the Highlander?

Leaving aside questions of locomotives, does space exist at the current Highlander destinations to hold another train? Aberdeen & Inverness perhaps, but Fort Bill seems unlikely and Oban is a non-starter.

 

[ajrm]

Leaving aside questions of locomotives, does space exist at the current Highlander destinations to hold another train? Aberdeen & Inverness perhaps, but Fort Bill seems unlikely and Oban is a non-starter.

In this scenario you don't need room for another train. Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William receive one half set each and the other one goes to Oban (where, yes, you have to work out how to stable it).

 

[Peter Sarf]

I‘ve posted somewhere - either upthread or on another thread - exactly why 4 bed couchettes wouldn’t be viable. The most you could get into the floorspace of a Mk5 sleeper coach, assuming you want some shared toilets at one end, is 8 x 4 bed cabins, ie 32 beds. This compares to 20 beds in the current layout, split between 4 x classic and 6 x Club. On the Highlander, that one coach will sell for a total of something in the region of £3,500-£4,000 in summer, depending on occupancy, and there will be ancilliary income offmost of them to in the club car. Therefore to make the same money (and igniring the fact that the operation incurs a cost per assenger) each of those 4 bed rooms will have to sell for something like £500. Now you might say “£125 each, great”, but you‘d have to be sure that every bed would sell in everyroom, and whilst that might happen in summer, it certainly wouldn‘t in winter.

The fact of the matter is that in this country, most people don‘t want to share with a stranger. I know some people are ok with it, but it is very much the minority, as CS’s research showed.

Yes, I seem to recall that the UK loading gauge makes comparisons with European Couchettes unrealistic.

There won’t be open access sleepers in this country, the finances are impossible.

I suppose it would only work if day trains London Euston + Kings Cross to/from Scotland were slowed down and also (more likely) if domestic flights were banned. That way we could all go back to the glory days of sleeper services left, right, centre and NE-SW !.

Not going to happen of course except eventually the decline of domestic air travel (probably not enough). That is long way off - the Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 stock may have reached retirement age before that happens but then HS2 might have reached Scotland before then anyway !.

In other words I feel a better daytime service has removed a lot of the reasons for overnight services within the UK and those daytime services should be expected to continue to improve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I seem to recall that the UK loading gauge makes comparisons with European Couchettes unrealistic.

And longitudinal ones (which would fit in the gauge - they do in Thai coaches which are similarly sized to UK ones) would be prevented by the reversal issue that similarly prevented pod flatbeds, i.e. the risk of neck injury if lying head to direction of travel.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And longitudinal ones (which would fit in the gauge - they do in Thai coaches which are similarly sized to UK ones) would be prevented by the reversal issue that similarly prevented pod flatbeds, i.e. the risk of neck injury if lying head to direction of travel.

Now that longitudinal issue also rings a bell. Even though it never bothered me back in the 1990s ! - I suspect safety regulations have tightened since then but maybe the speed is low enough ?. We would not be talking about fast trains for the distances concerned.

 

[railfan99]

It's a perfectly sensible policy. The seated coach is already hard to get a decent sleep in, without the additional disturbance of passengers coming in to use the loo.

It's more about ensuring that those paying a much lower fare in the sitting car (your term: seating car) lack access to the sleepers, to minimise the chance of theft from a sleeping compartment or other untoward occurrences.

I agree it's quite normal: historically the case on some of my nation's former combined sleeping/sitting car intercapital trains: the door between 1st and economy was locked. No different to 'CS'.

 

[gabrielhj07]

In this scenario you don't need room for another train. Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William receive one half set each and the other one goes to Oban (where, yes, you have to work out how to stable it).

That is not a bad idea for the Aberdeen & Inverness portions, however the West Highland is still a headache. Fort William would need to hold 8 carriages (up from the current 4/6) as well as up to 2 locomotives - I don’t know if it could do that. Then there is the pathing, and finally the simple matter that Oban passengers are currently well served by the Glasgow Lowlander.

I’m struggling to see any advantage to organising it this way.

 

[merry]

That is not a bad idea for the Aberdeen & Inverness portions, however the West Highland is still a headache. Fort William would need to hold 8 carriages (up from the current 4/6) as well as up to 2 locomotives - I don’t know if it could do that. Then there is the pathing, and finally the simple matter that Oban passengers are currently well served by the Glasgow Lowlander.

I’m struggling to see any advantage to organising it this way.

Looking at Fort Bill, there are a variety of sidings of decent length around Fort William Junction, so stabling wouldn't be an issue - unike Oban where space is absolutely at a premium (perhaps stable stock at Connel Ferry loop, if not needed for service trains? Otherwise it's Crianlarich, an insane trip just to find a siding!)
I agree with other contributors that an open access operator would have to find a viable business model in the UK market, which does have lots of differences from Europe, and given costs & constraints looks "unlikely" especially out of season.

This is all, however, straying a fair way into the 'speculative' area so perhaps time to bring the discussion back to current services?

 

[Krokodil]

Yes, I seem to recall that the UK loading gauge makes comparisons with European Couchettes unrealistic.

Not really, a carriage with six berth couchette compartments carries 50% more passengers than a carriage with three berth sleeper compartments. Likewise four berth couchettes offer 50% more capacity than two berth sleepers. The saving being down to having one standing space per four berths instead of one standing space for every two.

 

[Spartacus]

The overhead issues at Alexandra Palace tonight are having a serious effect on the Northbound services. 1S25 being caught up just south of the dewirement, 1S26 held at Wembley.

 

[GordonT]

The overhead issues at Alexandra Palace tonight are having a serious effect on the Northbound services. 1S25 being caught up just south of the dewirement, 1S26 held at Wembley.

Is the expectation that they will remain in London with pax transferred to "normal" trains in a few hours time?

 

[Statto]

Is the expectation that they will remain in London with pax transferred to "normal" trains in a few hours time?

They've both got through the issues, but both Northbound sleepers are now 4 hours plus late.

 

[Swanley 59]

They've both got through the issues, but both Northbound sleepers are now 4 hours plus late.

Seeing the northbound sleeper pass Stannington, just south of Morpeth, on the ECML at 6:30 AM was not something I expected to see when walking the dog this morning.

 

[D6130]

Seeing the northbound sleeper pass Stannington, just south of Morpeth, on the ECML at 6:30 AM was not something I expected to see when walking the dog this morning.

Did you manage to get a photo or video?

 

[Swanley 59]

Did you manage to get a photo or video?

Sadly, no. Not only was I taken by surprise, the the view was heavily restricted by trees at the point where it passed. Had it been 2 minutes later, I would have been in the perfect vantage point. It's a shame as the sleeper had been cautioned from the preceding train, the diverted Tyne Coal Terminal - Lynemouth Power Station biomass working, and so was running quite slowly.

Strangely enough, I could hear the sleeper from quite a long way off. The class 92 was so loud that I was actually expecting another class 60-hauled heavy freight train coming up the track.

 

[doc7austin]

In the trip planning forum I have added some current photos of the Caledonian Sleeper journey from London Euston to Fort William:

Photos of Caledonian Sleeper Train London Euston - Fort William

Hi, this is basically a photo collection about the Caledonian Sleeper Train London Euston - Fort William. London Euston: Euston Guest Lounge on platform 1, accessible for Caledonian Double and Club Room passengers. Our trainset to Inverness, Aberdeen, and Fort William:

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