Caledonian Sleeper

[jagardner1984]

Playing devils advocate on the whole seated carriage thing - isn’t there some reasonable expectation of seated car passengers to travel in a reasonably relaxed environment (or as relaxed as possible with a 4am change at Waverley) and therefore whilst people who can be conveyed and “know the system” have been ( see various references upthread) - that the general principle of “you can’t just pitch up” is actually very sensible and pragmatic - certainly if I was travelling to/from London and had booked a seat - the thought of a bus load of hill walkers who missed an earlier train standing over me for half of the West Highland Line would not fill me with joy as I tried to get to sleep - whilst unlikely it would be technically possible - and I think “no you really need to book” is a good principle for them to stick to.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Playing devils advocate on the whole seated carriage thing - isn’t there some reasonable expectation of seated car passengers to travel in a reasonably relaxed environment (or as relaxed as possible with a 4am change at Waverley) and therefore whilst people who can be conveyed and “know the system” have been ( see various references upthread) - that the general principle of “you can’t just pitch up” is actually very sensible and pragmatic - certainly if I was travelling to/from London and had booked a seat - the thought of a bus load of hill walkers who missed an earlier train standing over me for half of the West Highland Line would not fill me with joy as I tried to get to sleep - whilst unlikely it would be technically possible - and I think “no you really need to book” is a good principle for them to stick to.

A good point, based as much on my long years of commuting as on my CS travels.

GZ

 

[BRX]

The hill walkers wouldn't have missed an earlier train because this is the first one up the line to Fort William in the morning - hence why it's potentially useful for walkers. The next train is two hours later.

 

[JamieL]

The hill walkers wouldn't have missed an earlier train because this is the first one up the line to Fort William in the morning - hence why it's potentially useful for walkers. The next train is two hours later.

I think the point made about people standing in the seated (sleeping) coach is valid though - it wouldn't be very pleasant for people sleeping to have other travellers standing around in the coach (and inevitably talking).

 

[paul1609]

The hill walkers wouldn't have missed an earlier train because this is the first one up the line to Fort William in the morning - hence why it's potentially useful for walkers. The next train is two hours later.

The problem in the winter for hillwalkers is the very short daylight hours which is why I used to catch the sleeper north from Garelochead. The addition of the early Oban train (with the citylink bus from Tyndrum) has relieved the issue somewhat.

 

[enginedin]

I was on last sunday night's Highland sleeper - my experience has prompted several questions (mainly about data, which might be complicated and/or boring!):

• I was on the Aberdeen section. I noticed that the running info into EDB would normally be via Haymarket. However, we went via the Edinburgh Suburban Line. There's no evidence of this on sites like realtimetrains (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C05933/2023-11-12/detailed), apart from the "no report" at Haymarket... I thought this was a bit weird (engineering works perhaps?) There's also no evidence of us using that route when looking at any of the intermediate points (e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:GORGIEJ/2023-11-13/0006). Would people expect the running info to show the route actually taken, rather than the timetabled route? (i.e. is this a data issue with RTT? or the underlying database? or would they not bother to update it at all for a last minute change?)
• Anyway, I then realised that the Inverness train (1M16) had been cancelled at Perth (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19428/2023-11-12/detailed#allox_id=0) - so I wondered if this was the reason we'd gone the other way for some reason? Is that likely, or just a coincidence?
• I started to wonder what they'd do with all the people on the Inverness train - is there any protocol for this kind of thing? (it's infeasible to get road transport at 23:00 on a sunday!)... and then fell asleep...
• I woke up at 0400, and realised we should probably be at about Preston. We were indeed at a station... I looked out the window, and we were still at Edinburgh(!). It seems that they'd found another loco to get the Inverness coaches to Edinburgh, but making us all very late - but the running info still shows the train didn't run between Perth and Edinburgh. Again - why is the running info incorrect?
• Despite 1M16, which is INV-EUS, showing as cancelled, there is running info for EDB-EUS with the headcode 1Z16 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:14289/2023-11-13/detailed#allox_id=0), so there are two headcodes for EDB-EUS, but the latter one doesn't start at ABD which I find confusing
• the RTT pages for 1M16 and 1Z16 both state the service was cancelled, even though the pages also show the trains did actually run (albeit 130 mins late)! I've never seen this kind of contradiction before (yet again - who's responsible for this issue with the data?)

Regardless of all the above, 2 other observations:

• the running info shows the Fort William and Inverness trains merging (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19409/2023-11-19), but this doesn't show the Aberdeen section, which also seems weird? (issue with the underlying data? or with RTT?)
• officially, the train doesn't stop at Edinburgh, even though it's where all 3 sections merge. Does anyone know how strictly they enforce people with a valid ticket for the service preventing from getting on here (it would have made some sense for me to get on at Edinburgh, rather the station I did get on at, but didn't want to risk it...)

 

[Trainbike46]

I was on last sunday night's Highland sleeper - my experience has prompted several questions (mainly about data, which might be complicated and/or boring!):

• I was on the Aberdeen section. I noticed that the running info into EDB would normally be via Haymarket. However, we went via the Edinburgh Suburban Line. There's no evidence of this on sites like realtimetrains (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C05933/2023-11-12/detailed), apart from the "no report" at Haymarket... I thought this was a bit weird (engineering works perhaps?) There's also no evidence of us using that route when looking at any of the intermediate points (e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:GORGIEJ/2023-11-13/0006). Would people expect the running info to show the route actually taken, rather than the timetabled route? (i.e. is this a data issue with RTT? or the underlying database? or would they not bother to update it at all for a last minute change?)
• Anyway, I then realised that the Inverness train (1M16) had been cancelled at Perth (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19428/2023-11-12/detailed#allox_id=0) - so I wondered if this was the reason we'd gone the other way for some reason? Is that likely, or just a coincidence?
• I started to wonder what they'd do with all the people on the Inverness train - is there any protocol for this kind of thing? (it's infeasible to get road transport at 23:00 on a sunday!)... and then fell asleep...
• I woke up at 0400, and realised we should probably be at about Preston. We were indeed at a station... I looked out the window, and we were still at Edinburgh(!). It seems that they'd found another loco to get the Inverness coaches to Edinburgh, but making us all very late - but the running info still shows the train didn't run between Perth and Edinburgh. Again - why is the running info incorrect?
• Despite 1M16, which is INV-EUS, showing as cancelled, there is running info for EDB-EUS with the headcode 1Z16 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:14289/2023-11-13/detailed#allox_id=0), so there are two headcodes for EDB-EUS, but the latter one doesn't start at ABD which I find confusing
• the RTT pages for 1M16 and 1Z16 both state the service was cancelled, even though the pages also show the trains did actually run (albeit 130 mins late)! I've never seen this kind of contradiction before (yet again - who's responsible for this issue with the data?)

Regardless of all the above, 2 other observations:

• the running info shows the Fort William and Inverness trains merging (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19409/2023-11-19), but this doesn't show the Aberdeen section, which also seems weird? (issue with the underlying data? or with RTT?)
• officially, the train doesn't stop at Edinburgh, even though it's where all 3 sections merge. Does anyone know how strictly they enforce people with a valid ticket for the service preventing from getting on here (it would have made some sense for me to get on at Edinburgh, rather the station I did get on at, but didn't want to risk it...)

If travelling from Edinburgh, why would you not use the lowland sleeper instead of the highland one?

 

[jagardner1984]

Presumably it’s not a listed calling point as the station is technically closed at the point it does the various shunts ?

Presumably there have been instances where for whatever reason people have had to exit the service at Edinburgh, for reasons of illness or assisted by BTP etc. I’m guessing it’s a rare enough occurrence such instances are dealt with via “escorted by staff” as presumably there are night shift in various roles beyond the CS shunter themselves.

 

[185143]

Presumably it’s not a listed calling point as the station is technically closed at the point it does the various shunts ?

Presumably there have been instances where for whatever reason people have had to exit the service at Edinburgh, for reasons of illness or assisted by BTP etc. I’m guessing it’s a rare enough occurrence such instances are dealt with via “escorted by staff” as presumably there are night shift in various roles beyond the CS shunter themselves.

"Assisted by BTP" surely counts as being escorted by staff?

You can alight the Fort William service Southbound, there were a number of station staff present when I did the seats Southbound asking if anyone was leaving the station. They'd presumably show you to the exit if anyone was.

 

[enginedin]

If travelling from Edinburgh, why would you not use the lowland sleeper instead of the highland one?

it was already fully booked, so I booked to travel from Inverkeithing instead

 

[DelW]

The hill walkers wouldn't have missed an earlier train because this is the first one up the line to Fort William in the morning - hence why it's potentially useful for walkers. The next train is two hours later.

Presumably the scenario described could occur on the up service in the evening though?

 

[norbitonflyer]

I was on last sunday night's Highland sleeper - my experience has prompted several questions (mainly about data, which might be complicated and/or boring!):

• I was on the Aberdeen section. I noticed that the running info into EDB would normally be via Haymarket. However, we went via the Edinburgh Suburban Line.
• Inverness train (1M16) had been cancelled at Perth ....found another loco to get the Inverness coaches to Edinburgh, but making us all very late - but the running info still shows the train didn't run between Perth and Edinburgh. Again - why is the running info incorrect?
• Despite 1M16, which is INV-EUS, showing as cancelled, there is running info for EDB-EUS with the headcode 1Z16
• the RTT pages for 1M16 and 1Z16 both state the service was cancelled, even though the pages also show the trains did actually run (albeit 130 mins late)! I've never seen this kind of contradiction before (yet again - who's responsible for this issue with the data?)
• the running info shows the Fort William and Inverness trains merging (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19409/2023-11-19), but this doesn't show the Aberdeen section, which also seems weird? (issue with the underlying data? or with RTT?)

Someone reported upthread that a 73 gave up on one of the sleeper portions earlier this week. And, somehow, the fort William and Inverness portions running as one train witghout the Aberdeen.
Could it be that incident? A failed 73 would require evacuating the train, as without a working 73 on the train, there is no "hotel" power (lights, aircon etc), but the stock could still run empty. A "Z" headcode usually means something not in the timetable, possibly in this case the stock originally intended for 1M16 had been redesignated 1Z16.
As for routing via the suburban line, this could be because the portion was back to front for some reason, or it could be that without the Perth portion the stock needed to be reversed.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

I was on last sunday night's Highland sleeper - my experience has prompted several questions (mainly about data, which might be complicated and/or boring!):

• I was on the Aberdeen section. I noticed that the running info into EDB would normally be via Haymarket. However, we went via the Edinburgh Suburban Line. There's no evidence of this on sites like realtimetrains (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C05933/2023-11-12/detailed), apart from the "no report" at Haymarket... I thought this was a bit weird (engineering works perhaps?) There's also no evidence of us using that route when looking at any of the intermediate points (e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:GORGIEJ/2023-11-13/0006). Would people expect the running info to show the route actually taken, rather than the timetabled route? (i.e. is this a data issue with RTT? or the underlying database? or would they not bother to update it at all for a last minute change?)
• Anyway, I then realised that the Inverness train (1M16) had been cancelled at Perth (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19428/2023-11-12/detailed#allox_id=0) - so I wondered if this was the reason we'd gone the other way for some reason? Is that likely, or just a coincidence?
• I started to wonder what they'd do with all the people on the Inverness train - is there any protocol for this kind of thing? (it's infeasible to get road transport at 23:00 on a sunday!)... and then fell asleep...
• I woke up at 0400, and realised we should probably be at about Preston. We were indeed at a station... I looked out the window, and we were still at Edinburgh(!). It seems that they'd found another loco to get the Inverness coaches to Edinburgh, but making us all very late - but the running info still shows the train didn't run between Perth and Edinburgh. Again - why is the running info incorrect?
• Despite 1M16, which is INV-EUS, showing as cancelled, there is running info for EDB-EUS with the headcode 1Z16 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:14289/2023-11-13/detailed#allox_id=0), so there are two headcodes for EDB-EUS, but the latter one doesn't start at ABD which I find confusing
• the RTT pages for 1M16 and 1Z16 both state the service was cancelled, even though the pages also show the trains did actually run (albeit 130 mins late)! I've never seen this kind of contradiction before (yet again - who's responsible for this issue with the data?)

Regardless of all the above, 2 other observations:

• the running info shows the Fort William and Inverness trains merging (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19409/2023-11-19), but this doesn't show the Aberdeen section, which also seems weird? (issue with the underlying data? or with RTT?)
• officially, the train doesn't stop at Edinburgh, even though it's where all 3 sections merge. Does anyone know how strictly they enforce people with a valid ticket for the service preventing from getting on here (it would have made some sense for me to get on at Edinburgh, rather the station I did get on at, but didn't want to risk it...)

RTT goes completely to pot if trains are diverted or cancelled on route - for example your train from Aberdeen is shown at joining with 1M16 towards Perth. In all fairness to the RTT team, I suspect it would be horrendously difficult (read: expensive) to program for all the things that could go wrong, even if the data feeds to RTT reported everything that was happening (which they clearly don't). It would be helpful to know what can and can't be relied on - but that's for a different thread and another day.

 

[43096]

I was on last sunday night's Highland sleeper - my experience has prompted several questions (mainly about data, which might be complicated and/or boring!):

• I was on the Aberdeen section. I noticed that the running info into EDB would normally be via Haymarket. However, we went via the Edinburgh Suburban Line. There's no evidence of this on sites like realtimetrains (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C05933/2023-11-12/detailed), apart from the "no report" at Haymarket... I thought this was a bit weird (engineering works perhaps?) There's also no evidence of us using that route when looking at any of the intermediate points (e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:GORGIEJ/2023-11-13/0006). Would people expect the running info to show the route actually taken, rather than the timetabled route? (i.e. is this a data issue with RTT? or the underlying database? or would they not bother to update it at all for a last minute change?)

The data feed to RTT has no timings points for the diverted route, so it has no way of knowing which route it has taken if it deviates from the booked route.

• Anyway, I then realised that the Inverness train (1M16) had been cancelled at Perth (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19428/2023-11-12/detailed#allox_id=0) - so I wondered if this was the reason we'd gone the other way for some reason? Is that likely, or just a coincidence?
• I started to wonder what they'd do with all the people on the Inverness train - is there any protocol for this kind of thing? (it's infeasible to get road transport at 23:00 on a sunday!)... and then fell asleep...

Bused to Edinburgh.

• I woke up at 0400, and realised we should probably be at about Preston. We were indeed at a station... I looked out the window, and we were still at Edinburgh(!). It seems that they'd found another loco to get the Inverness coaches to Edinburgh, but making us all very late - but the running info still shows the train didn't run between Perth and Edinburgh. Again - why is the running info incorrect?

The passengers were taken off the train at Perth for buses to Edinburgh due to a train supply fault on the locomotive. The train could be moved to Edinburgh, by the original locomotive, just not with passengers on board. 1M16 was correctly shown on RTT as cancelled, with a 5Z16 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:14288/2023-11-12/detailed#allox_id=0) empty stock move being (correctly) put in the system to move the empty train to Edinburgh.

• Despite 1M16, which is INV-EUS, showing as cancelled, there is running info for EDB-EUS with the headcode 1Z16 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:14289/2023-11-13/detailed#allox_id=0), so there are two headcodes for EDB-EUS, but the latter one doesn't start at ABD which I find confusing

The Aberdeen portion (and indeed the Fort William part, too) is an Aberdeen to Edinburgh train as far as the railway operation is concerned. So creating a 1Z16 Edinburgh to Euston train is entirely correct - 1M16 is the through train so 1Z16 was a replacement for this.

• the RTT pages for 1M16 and 1Z16 both state the service was cancelled, even though the pages also show the trains did actually run (albeit 130 mins late)! I've never seen this kind of contradiction before (yet again - who's responsible for this issue with the data?)

1M16 shows correctly as cancelled at Perth. 1Z16 shows as "This service was cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment (MC)." which isn't quite correct (it was delay rather than cancellation) as it clearly ran. Suspect just the delay attribution code for 1M16 has also been applied to 1Z16, as the cancellation of 1M16 is the reason why 1Z16 was over two hours late.

To be fair to Caledonian Sleeper and GB Railfreight, they managed the situation well, with the optimum solution used for getting all passengers to destination.

 

[alistairlees]

The passengers were taken off the train at Perth for buses to Edinburgh due to a train supply fault on the locomotive. The train could be moved to Edinburgh, by the original locomotive, just not with passengers on board. 1M16 was correctly shown on RTT as cancelled, with a 5Z16 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:14288/2023-11-12/detailed#allox_id=0) empty stock move being (correctly) put in the system to move the empty train to Edinburgh.

Indeed. The coaches can't operate various systems without hotel power, and it was not certain that the batteries would be able to provide this for the journey from Perth to Edinburgh, especially if there was further delay.

To be fair to Caledonian Sleeper and GB Railfreight, they managed the situation well, with the optimum solution used for getting all passengers to destination.

Agreed

 

[jagardner1984]

Question for the ticketing experts- obviously the new website is a massive step forward in terms of functionality.

I note in coming weeks many days my chosen route Classic Cabin GLC-EUS is entirely sold out.

So my questions -

Is there a way of purchasing a Club cabin with a Classic Flexipass credit or ticket, and paying the difference ? It seems counterintuitive to force me to purchase an entirely new ticket.

Is there a reason why "Your route is sold out, would you like to see other options with a change of train ?" - i.e. to show capacity on the EDB (first leg via Scotrail) or vice versa ? Or for example for the Highland Sleeper - earlier Scotrail train picking up another portion further south ? ... is not displayed.

The "Show other dates" option is great aside from when there are significant periods with no availability throughout.

It would seem more logical to highlight alternative capacity with a slightly less direct route ?

 

[alistairlees]

Question for the ticketing experts- obviously the new website is a massive step forward in terms of functionality.

I note in coming weeks many days my chosen route Classic Cabin GLC-EUS is entirely sold out.

So my questions -

Is there a way of purchasing a Club cabin with a Classic Flexipass credit or ticket, and paying the difference ? It seems counterintuitive to force me to purchase an entirely new ticket.

No, sorry.

Is there a reason why "Your route is sold out, would you like to see other options with a change of train ?" - i.e. to show capacity on the EDB (first leg via Scotrail) or vice versa ? Or for example for the Highland Sleeper - earlier Scotrail train picking up another portion further south ? ... is not displayed?

There are no through fares. But maybe one day…

The "Show other dates" option is great aside from when there are significant periods with no availability throughout.

It would seem more logical to highlight alternative capacity with a slightly less direct route ?

Same as above

 

[enginedin]

The data feed to RTT has no timings points for the diverted route, so it has no way of knowing which route it has taken if it deviates from the booked route.

Bused to Edinburgh.

The passengers were taken off the train at Perth for buses to Edinburgh due to a train supply fault on the locomotive. The train could be moved to Edinburgh, by the original locomotive, just not with passengers on board. 1M16 was correctly shown on RTT as cancelled, with a 5Z16 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:14288/2023-11-12/detailed#allox_id=0) empty stock move being (correctly) put in the system to move the empty train to Edinburgh.

The Aberdeen portion (and indeed the Fort William part, too) is an Aberdeen to Edinburgh train as far as the railway operation is concerned. So creating a 1Z16 Edinburgh to Euston train is entirely correct - 1M16 is the through train so 1Z16 was a replacement for this.

1M16 shows correctly as cancelled at Perth. 1Z16 shows as "This service was cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment (MC)." which isn't quite correct (it was delay rather than cancellation) as it clearly ran. Suspect just the delay attribution code for 1M16 has also been applied to 1Z16, as the cancellation of 1M16 is the reason why 1Z16 was over two hours late.

To be fair to Caledonian Sleeper and GB Railfreight, they managed the situation well, with the optimum solution used for getting all passengers to destination.

Thanks! I'm surprised that CS managed to find enough buses to get everyone from Perth to Edinburgh at 11pm - seems pretty good though. It seems that the answer to most of my questions boils down to dirty data - at least I know now

I guess we might never know why we were diverted via the Edinburgh Suburban Line, unless anyone knows the driver / signaller who was on!

It also seems like no-one officially knows whether someone could join at EDB, even though it's an unadvertised stop.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Thanks! I'm surprised that CS managed to find enough buses to get everyone from Perth to Edinburgh at 11pm - seems pretty good though. It seems that the answer to most of my questions boils down to dirty data - at least I know now

I guess we might never know why we were diverted via the Edinburgh Suburban Line, unless anyone knows the driver / signaller who was on!

It also seems like no-one officially knows whether someone could join at EDB, even though it's an unadvertised stop.

The sleeper doesn't hold many. One coach would do it.

Whilst I can't see how they'd know you joined the train, with passengers getting off the Fort William portion to head South, technically a ticket from Edinburgh would not be valid. So a ticket inspection & over enthusiastic guard could cause issues. You'd also not have a reservation & it's possible (but unlikely) the seated coach could be full.

 

[jagardner1984]

No, sorry.

There are no through fares. But maybe one day…

Same as above

Do understand why in some ways a discrete booking engine makes sense in regarding it as a separate product, but given the availability issues, all would seem sensible developments - surely CS could negotiate a flat “+Scotrail” supplement that would allow travel beyond your Sleeper destination on the day of arrival / departure.

Have the formations been shortened as yet for winter ? It seems a shame if so since people are being turned away from the service. (Namely me !)

 

[JonathanH]

Have the formations been shortened as yet for winter ?

Yes, running as 7 car / 14 car formations at present.

 

[D6130]

I note in coming weeks many days my chosen route Classic Cabin GLC-EUS is entirely sold out.

Assuming that you're starting from the Glasgow area, could you not try booking on the Fort William portion from Helensburgh Upper, Dumbarton or Dalmuir?

 

[JamieL]

Have the formations been shortened as yet for winter ? It seems a shame if so since people are being turned away from the service. (Namely me !)

Yes, running as 7 car / 14 car formations at prpresent.

I have had three journeys now over the last few weeks where no Club cabins have been available and so opted not to use the CS. Seems very silly to reduce train lengths.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well I am on tonight. This is make or break for the seated portion as far as I am concerned, if I feel like 50 shades of rehydrated death on arrival at Edinburgh then I will never ever categorically 100% definitely do it again.

 

[BRX]

Seems very silly to reduce train lengths.

I think it might be part of their maintenance strategy?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I am on tonight. This is make or break for the seated portion as far as I am concerned, if I feel like 50 shades of rehydrated death on arrival at Edinburgh then I will never ever categorically 100% definitely do it again.

The seat is the same as First Class on 80x, so if you've tried those you can judge before you even board

I think they're pretty rubbish, but for a budget product (it isn't really even competing with daytime Standard class, it's competing with the coaches at the rock-bottom of the market) it could be a lot worse - indeed they could just have made it 2+2 like most European night trains are these days as well as the Riviera.

 

[Trainbike46]

The seat is the same as First Class on 80x, so if you've tried those you can judge before you even board

I think they're pretty rubbish, but for a budget product (it isn't really even competing with daytime Standard class, it's competing with the coaches at the rock-bottom of the market) it could be a lot worse - indeed they could just have made it 2+2 like most European night trains are these days as well as the Riviera.

If they went 2+2 in the seated portion with the same seats as on the refurbished pendolino standard class it would be an improvement for both comfort and capacity tbh

 

[enginedin]

Whilst I can't see how they'd know you joined the train, with passengers getting off the Fort William portion to head South, technically a ticket from Edinburgh would not be valid. So a ticket inspection & over enthusiastic guard could cause issues. You'd also not have a reservation & it's possible (but unlikely) the seated coach could be full.

Ah - I was thinking more of the situation where the Lowland Sleeper is fully booked, so I book a cabin from Inverkeithing on the Highland Sleeper but actually get on at Edinburgh... although they do check you off a list at the station you're booked to get on at so I guess you'd have to go and speak nicely to the manager of the hotel section to get access to the cabin

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they went 2+2 in the seated portion with the same seats as on the refurbished pendolino standard class it would be an improvement for both comfort and capacity tbh

I was thinking exactly that - the big headrest is great for resting your head. Wonder is there a variant of that with recline? There is of most seats as European long distance operators tend to specify it in both classes.

Would mean more seats to flog to walkers going to Glasgow on the Fort Bill, too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2023 ==

Ah - I was thinking more of the situation where the Lowland Sleeper is fully booked, so I book a cabin from Inverkeithing on the Highland Sleeper but actually get on at Edinburgh... although they do check you off a list at the station you're booked to get on at so I guess you'd have to go and speak nicely to the manager of the hotel section to get access to the cabin

You may find yourself unable to enter Edinburgh station if you do that. You'd be better to actually go to Dalmuir, Inverkeithing or Falkirk Grahamston (as you prefer) and board at one of those. Or indeed Glasgow which is generally less likely to be full than Edinburgh due to fewer tourists.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Tbh whilst I agree the seat isn't amazing, it's more the ambience, amount of bangs and rattles, coach temperature and whether there's a stank party on board working their way through a 24 crate of supermarket own label, they're tends to be very little regulation in my experience of passenger behavior in the seats unless the train manager happens to walk through or someone uses the steward call bell to order something


Of all the seats they could have specified I agree they picked the worst as it was most likely the cheapest but given that if I am traveling any distance on any of the IET operators other than lumo aisle book first class for the marginally improved seat then that should probably tell you my feelings on it, in short not great but acceptable