Caledonian Sleeper

[JonathanH]

If people fly less, it will help the environment.

If people travel less, it will help the environment even more (so long as they don't start having barbecues at home every weekend).

Given the apparent challenges with lack of rail capacity between Glasgow and London to absorb those who presently fly, perhaps there's justification for running multiple sleeper trains to/from Scotland rather than only the two journeys we have today.

There isn't justification for running multiple sleeper trains at all. It is most efficient to just run day trains at the times people want to travel.

I think claims about HS2 killing the CS are a forum thing based on conceptual theory rather than considering the broader realities and users of the service.

That is admittedly true. Mind you, claiming that rail can solve every issue about people making England to Scotland journeys is also conceptual theory.

 

[PG]

I'm not a betting man but even I would wager against that.

Me too, though that depends on the length of the pause on HS2!

 

[lachlan]

If people travel less, it will help the environment even more (so long as they don't start having barbecues at home every weekend).


There isn't justification for running multiple sleeper trains at all. It is most efficient to just run day trains at the times people want to travel.


That is admittedly true. Mind you, claiming that rail can solve every issue about people making England to Scotland journeys is also conceptual theory.

Well yes, if nobody ever travelled for leisure and everyone walked or cycled to work, we could eliminate transport emissions. However there is an appetite for travel that isn’t going away any time soon, so the next best thing we can do is travel sustainably. The bulk of rail travel to Scotland is electric and we have the technology to electrify the rest of it if we wished. Sustainable flight is still some way off as the technology to do it doesn’t exist yet.

 

[Bill57p9]

Therein lies an advantage of a sleeper train. For those in the land of nod between midnight and 6.30am, the train journey effectively takes about half an hour on the Lowlander. I know people claim HS2 will kill off demand for the Caledonian Sleeper but it seems booked solid most nights at present and of course cheap flights may not be around forever. Given the apparent challenges with lack of rail capacity between Glasgow and London to absorb those who presently fly, perhaps there's justification for running multiple sleeper trains to/from Scotland rather than only the two journeys we have today.

Of course, back in the days before budget airlines in the UK there were several anglo-Scottish sleepers, even catering for that strange & little appreciated market segment of people travelling by train to/from somewhere other than London (Edinburgh & Glasgow to Bristol & Plymouth).

I certainly remember in the early 90s Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers were all too long to combine in any way.

There were also seated overnight trains from London (of course) to Fishguard Harbour and Holyhead connecting with Irish ferries, plus a sleeper to Stranraer in the 80s.

All of these were busy at the time. I don’t know what the economics were back then, but low cost air travel simply decimated the market.

Given the level of subsidy required with the current operation despite the high fares, unless the era of low cost air travel dies (which I can’t see happening) I really can’t see any growth in the operation apart from just possibly a Lumo style seated service using stock that would otherwise be sat in a depot not earning revenue.

 

[trei2k]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I've tried to skim as much of this thread as I could and use the search, but I couldn't find anything recent.

What is the current position in relation to using the seated sleeper for local journeys on the West Highland line? i.e. if I wanted to travel Dalmuir to Fort William (or vice versa) - is it possible to get a reservation if I already hold a particular ticket like an off-peak return?

 

[_toommm_]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I've tried to skim as much of this thread as I could and use the search, but I couldn't find anything recent.

What is the current position in relation to using the seated sleeper for local journeys on the West Highland line? i.e. if I wanted to travel Dalmuir to Fort William (or vice versa) - is it possible to get a reservation if I already hold a particular ticket like an off-peak return?

It is possible. I did it in December from Queen Street to Corrour.

 

[Christmas]

Have the Scottish Government and Transport Minister given any convincing evidence why the Caledonian Sleeper was not re-merged into the main ScotRail operations?

I fail to understand how running two sets of management and non operational staff can possibly be justified in the present financial climate.

 

[jagardner1984]

Not knowing the specific legislation - but isn’t it technically an “Operator of Last Resort” - ie technically a holding pattern operator until the contract is retendered - however unlikely that seems in the current political or economic context.

For example, I understood the operational teams running Northern and LNER to be entirely seperate, despite having significant geography overlap, and being run by the same entity, because in theory, the DfT is preparing them to be tendered out again.

GBR (and it’s equivalent in Scotland) May obviously overtake that process organisationally.

 

[JamesT]

Have the Scottish Government and Transport Minister given any convincing evidence why the Caledonian Sleeper was not re-merged into the main ScotRail operations?

I fail to understand how running two sets of management and non operational staff can possibly be justified in the present financial climate.

They were the ones who split it out, so presumably they think it’s still a good idea?

Is there much slack in the Scotrail organisation to take on the work the CS staff are doing, or is it more likely that the same people would be doing the same work with a different uniform and you save nothing?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Is there much slack in the Scotrail organisation to take on the work the CS staff are doing, or is it more likely that the same people would be doing the same work with a different uniform and you save nothing?

Probably no slack at all in front line roles, some scope for economies of scale in some back office roles, a lot of scope in areas like finance, and they could probably lose all the “head of” roles

 

[SussexSeagull]

What you have to take in to account is that several of the London airports are also regional airports for areas with large populations. Gatwick with the Sussex Coast, Stansted with East Anglia, Essex and Kent, Glasgow is also the regional airport for the West Coast of Scotland.
The real journeys lots of people are making by air aren't city centre to city centre. Once you're away from the city centres the rail alternative often isn't that attractive even when compared to road. Even taking a journey where rail has the advantage of high frequency Gatwick Airport to Paisley by rail takes an average of 6 1/2 to 7 hours.

When HS2 is eventually running, most people coming up from the Sussex Coast will have to pass through Gatwick to access services. Don't be surprised when people going to Scotland just get off and jump on a plane.

 

[JamieL]

When HS2 is eventually running, most people coming up from the Sussex Coast will have to pass through Gatwick to access services. Don't be surprised when people going to Scotland just get off and jump on a plane.

HS2 is going to Sussex?

 

[zwk500]

HS2 is going to Sussex?

No, his point is that for people south of London flying will remain competitive against HS2 from Euston because they have easier access to Gatwick Airport than Euston station. An internal flight with no checked luggage and you wouldn't need too much time in security.

 

[JamieL]

competitive against HS2 from Euston because they have easier access to Gatwick Airport than Euston station. An internal flight with no checked luggage and you wouldn't need too much time in security.

I thought that might be the case - but that is no different to now is it? HS2 will offer no real timesaving over the existing arrangements. The question is whether the flights should be taxed more to get more people onto the train as the more environmentally friendly option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, his point is that for people south of London flying will remain competitive against HS2 from Euston because they have easier access to Gatwick Airport than Euston station. An internal flight with no checked luggage and you wouldn't need too much time in security.

There's very little point in the railway bothering much about people who happen to live or be going to somewhere very near a major airport. They aren't likely to win that traffic and should really concentrate on the gains they can make against e.g. the car.

 

[zwk500]

There's very little point in the railway bothering much about people who happen to live or be going to somewhere very near a major airport. They aren't likely to win that traffic and should really concentrate on the gains they can make against e.g. the car.

I agree, I was just clarifying that nobody was expecting HS2 to suddenly surge south of the River.

 

[styles]

If travelling from Edinburgh, you could consider sleeping at home and taking the 5:40 am LNER (arriving at 9:40)?

Would love to, but need to be in Sudbury Hill/Greenford for 9. Some flex for delays but getting there for 10:30 each week sadly not an option

I'll probably shell out for the Club Flexipasses. It'll be a nice treat anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2023 ==

There's very little point in the railway bothering much about people who happen to live or be going to somewhere very near a major airport. They aren't likely to win that traffic and should really concentrate on the gains they can make against e.g. the car.

Perhaps, though First/Lumo are giving it a go and appears to be on course for their profitability target. Potentially boosted by post-pandemic aviation avoidance. Mind you, while I understand the Stevenage call, I'm not sure the purpose of Morpeth.

 

[JamieL]

I'm not sure the purpose of Morpeth.

Presumably because it has to slow down anyway for the sharp bend.

 

[43066]

Presumably because it has to slow down anyway for the sharp bend.

Advanced warnings of PSRs are still referred to by some as Morpeth boards, and were recommended after a fatal derailment at the curve in 1969.

Ironically (for this thread) the accident involved a London - Scotland sleeper service.

 

[zwk500]

Mind you, while I understand the Stevenage call, I'm not sure the purpose of Morpeth.

To pass the not primarily abstractive revenue test (essentially, an OAO must generate more revenue from new traffic than it potentially creams off the franchised operators). LNER doesn't serve Morpeth, and the sharp curve means the stops there is the least disruptive to the journey time (whereas stopping at York would be abstracting LNER revenue).

 

[Bill57p9]

They were the ones who split it out, so presumably they think it’s still a good idea?

IIRC part of the rationale for splitting it out originally was to allow CS to focus (i.e. management bandwidth) on the sleeper rather than CS being a small outlier in a vast organisation. The importance of this was increased at the time with the franchise requirement to update the stock.

With the new stock now fully bedded in, this argument isn't as strong as it was, though the sleeper operation remains very different to the remainder of ScotRail.

That said my personal view is that there would be gains to be made in merging CS back into ScotRail both in the potential to save some costs (back office, lounges, bookings, ...) and offering a more integrated experience to passengers customers guests, e.g. through tickets to ScotRail connections.

 

[Falcon1200]

That said my personal view is that there would be gains to be made in merging CS back into ScotRail both in the potential to save some costs (back office, lounges, bookings, ...) and offering a more integrated experience to passengers customers guests, e.g. through tickets to ScotRail connections.

There would also be advantages and efficiencies in returning operational management of the Sleeper services to Scotrail Control, which is co-located with Network Rail Scotland Route Control.
(Whether Scotrail's Control staff would welcome regaining the responsibility is another thing, however.....)

 

[jagardner1984]

On the question of tickets - in the period prior to separating the franchise - I have recollection of buying a berth ticket to a non London destination via the telesales - was I effectively buying an off peak return and then a berth upgrade for the Glasgow-London leg ?

If so - this would seem an obvious upgrade to the sleeper booking engine - to allow people to book from other destinations.

In fact, given the supposed purpose of bringing high value tourists in - I’d have thought there would be an argument to allow an amount of onward travel on the Scotrail network for a small supplement, or for advertising through tickets from European destinations via Eurostar.

In my head there is a pretty clear way of showing on the website - this portion is in a bed - this portion is in a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would love to, but need to be in Sudbury Hill/Greenford for 9. Some flex for delays but getting there for 10:30 each week sadly not an option

I'll probably shell out for the Club Flexipasses. It'll be a nice treat anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2023 ==



Perhaps, though First/Lumo are giving it a go and appears to be on course for their profitability target. Potentially boosted by post-pandemic aviation avoidance. Mind you, while I understand the Stevenage call, I'm not sure the purpose of Morpeth.

While Stevenage is perhaps a minor go at Luton, Lumo is mostly about city centre to city centre. It won't be as much use to someone going from Leagrave to Corstorphine. (That was what I meant by "very near").

 

[Wallsendmag]

LNER doesn't serve Morpeth, and the sharp curve means the stops there is the least disruptive to the journey time (whereas stopping at York would be abstracting LNER revenue).

Oh yes they do.

 

[jfollows]

Oh yes they do.

Here are the 12 LNER calls at Morpeth today: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2359?stp=WVSC&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=GR

 

[Bald Rick]

While Stevenage is perhaps a minor go at Luton,

It’s actually more of a go at Stansted. Quite a lot of air passengers on the Stansted - Edinburgh flow, in 2019 it was almost twice as many passengers as Luton - Edinburgh.

 

[35B]

Probably no slack at all in front line roles, some scope for economies of scale in some back office roles, a lot of scope in areas like finance, and they could probably lose all the “head of” roles

But what would the cost of restructuring to deliver those changes be. That's both financial (after all, if a whole set of roles could be lost, that would imply redundancies), and also in terms of staff knowledge and organisation as Scotrail staff took on CS responsibilities (and vice versa). Such restructurings aren't free, and probably make a very marginal difference to the overall cost of the CS operation, so the cost/benefit analysis of change would be interesting to see.

 

[zwk500]

Oh yes they do.

Here are the 12 LNER calls at Morpeth today: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2359?stp=WVSC&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=GR

Fair enough, were LNER stopping there regularly when Lumo started up? I thought Morpeth was needed for the abstraction test but apparently it's not as clean as a 'new' station pairing.

 

[LowLevel]

Fair enough, were LNER stopping there regularly when Lumo started up? I thought Morpeth was needed for the abstraction test but apparently it's not as clean as a 'new' station pairing.

Sure, I think there's always been Intercity services to Morpeth on the London route as well as Cross Country.