Caledonian Sleeper

[marks87]

Some interesting technical discussions in here the past couple of days. The ability of "thunderbird" locos to provide ETS is something I've always been curious about.

In the Mk2/3 days, sometimes a 66 would drag the sleeper on a non-electrified diversion. I was under the impression the coaches had batteries that could keep critical systems going. Do the Mk5s have something similar?

 

[JModulo]

Some interesting technical discussions in here the past couple of days. The ability of "thunderbird" locos to provide ETS is something I've always been curious about.

In the Mk2/3 days, sometimes a 66 would drag the sleeper on a non-electrified diversion. I was under the impression the coaches had batteries that could keep critical systems going. Do the Mk5s have something similar?

90 minutes ish under battery power, then the train shuts down. Limited function under battery power too.

 

[zwk500]

90 minutes ish under battery power, then the train shuts down. Limited function under battery power too.

Is it permitted for the Mk5s to be planned to operate under battery power in normal service?

 

[JModulo]

Is it permitted for the Mk5s to be planned to operate under battery power in normal service?

It has happened before in certain circumstances. You run the risk though of once the batteries go, its game over.

 

[ruaival]

Some interesting technical discussions in here the past couple of days. The ability of "thunderbird" locos to provide ETS is something I've always been curious about.

In the Mk2/3 days, sometimes a 66 would drag the sleeper on a non-electrified diversion. I was under the impression the coaches had batteries that could keep critical systems going. Do the Mk5s have something similar?

Back in Mk3 days before Scotrail, I recall a diesel hauled leg from Edinburgh to Carstairs which got progressively colder in the sleeping cabins until heating picked up again once back on electric traction for the West Coast main line South.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I think the point being made was that a single 73 can handle the ETS on the 8-car Inverness portion, as the second one can be replaced by a 66, so if there were spare 73s lying around you could perhaps use two on a 16-car train, with a diesel to provide the traction. But there are only six ETS-fitted 73s - three are needed for north of Edinburgh, and to cover the Anglo-Scottish legs you would need at least four (if the traction changes were north of the crossover points - Preston for the Lowlander, Beattock for the Highlander) and probably eight.

And the point I was making was neither Inverness nor Aberdeen has a second class 73 to give up to meet the suggested solution (regardless of it's merits).

no, idea is daily use just on highlander portions in place of the second 73 on the inverness and aberdeen portions
just makes its more flexable to use in odd situations like last night
could even do it with making 2 of the 73's non-powered and purely a high voltage gen van but still drivable so can be driven with the other 73 attached

 

[styles]

I've been looking at travel options for one day a week (mid-week) travel from Inverkeithing/Edinburgh to London.

Seats on the sleeper vary between £50-90, typically averaging £70, for the days in question. £140 return but no bed for 2 nights on the trot. I sleep terribly sat upright (unless I've had a litre of G&T but that's fraught with problems).

Perhaps a Flexipass for a Classic room - £180 on the way out, £70 for seat on the way back, for £250 return.

Or suck it up for £360 return on the Flexipass.

Non-CS options for a return after a working day aren't any cheaper.

Frustratingly I can fly for £65 return, even at peak hours. But I really don't want to fly.

I get that it's a tourist option, and it's often fully or mostly booked up. I think I'm most frustrated that the option to book a shared berth has gone, as the Classic twin rooms start at around £175, and £175 for a return journey including a bed to actually get some sleep is value I could afford.

If I want to sleep both ways, it's £250 return more than flying basically (allocating a healthy budget for transferring from airport to destination), for let's say 44 weeks a year, £11k extra expensive to take the environmentally-friendly option.

Can't help but feel we're missing opportunities.

 

[najaB]

Can't help but feel we're missing opportunities.

Only if beds are regularly going unsold.

 

[styles]

Only if beds are regularly going unsold.

Aren't they?

Rooms aren't regularly going unsold, but are what % of rooms have two occupants?

By, "Can't help feel we're missing opportunities.", I don't simply mean the financial viability of the CS operation - more that if rooms and seats are sold out, yet thousands of Edinburgh-London aeroplane seats are sold each day, as a society we could be doing more to support people choosing a better mode of transport.

 

[najaB]

Aren't they?

Rooms aren't regularly going unsold, but are what % of rooms have two occupants?

I don't know. Hence why the 'If'.

 

[CBlue]

I've been looking at travel options for one day a week (mid-week) travel from Inverkeithing/Edinburgh to London.

Seats on the sleeper vary between £50-90, typically averaging £70, for the days in question. £140 return but no bed for 2 nights on the trot. I sleep terribly sat upright (unless I've had a litre of G&T but that's fraught with problems).

Perhaps a Flexipass for a Classic room - £180 on the way out, £70 for seat on the way back, for £250 return.

Or suck it up for £360 return on the Flexipass.

Non-CS options for a return after a working day aren't any cheaper.

Frustratingly I can fly for £65 return, even at peak hours. But I really don't want to fly.

I get that it's a tourist option, and it's often fully or mostly booked up. I think I'm most frustrated that the option to book a shared berth has gone, as the Classic twin rooms start at around £175, and £175 for a return journey including a bed to actually get some sleep is value I could afford.

If I want to sleep both ways, it's £250 return more than flying basically (allocating a healthy budget for transferring from airport to destination), for let's say 44 weeks a year, £11k extra expensive to take the environmentally-friendly option.

Can't help but feel we're missing opportunities.

It's more expensive than flying yet heavily subsidised.

A new high speed line to Scotland, if built, would be a far better souce of competition with domestic flights in terms of time and price.

 

[Caleb2010]

Is it permitted for the Mk5s to be planned to operate under battery power in normal service?

Don’t they spend a certain amount of time (albeit only a few minutes and at reduced output) on battery power during engine swaps at Edinburgh when operating the Highlander diagram?

 

[zwk500]

Don’t they spend a certain amount of time (albeit only a few minutes and at reduced output) on battery power during engine swaps at Edinburgh when operating the Highlander diagram?

I thought there was always a loco attached at some point, other than the two lounge cars that don't go south. But a couple of minutes in a station is a somewhat different risk to being sat down on a line in the countryside and running out.

 

[JamieL]

It's more expensive than flying yet heavily subsidised.

A new high speed line to Scotland, if built, would be a far better souce of competition with domestic flights in terms of time and price.

I agree but we are not going to get it. High speed to Birmingham, or maybe Crewe if we are lucky, and then the trains will need to run slower than the current Pendalinos. I will be amazed if we see a 30min improvement over current timings when HS2 is all done.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I've noticed a few times when near the Inverness station at different times during the day, the 66 is running while the sleeper is sitting at the station and was wondering why that is?

 

[gabrielhj07]

The down Lowlander tonight is hauled by 92033 with 92020 DIT. I assume it’s a repositioning move to EC?

 

[BRX]

Frustratingly I can fly for £65 return, even at peak hours. But I really don't want to fly.

I'm not about to argue that flying isn't cheaper but as a matter of interest what times would this involve (including when you have to get up and when you get home to bed)?

 

[Bill57p9]

I thought there was always a loco attached at some point, other than the two lounge cars that don't go south. But a couple of minutes in a station is a somewhat different risk to being sat down on a line in the countryside and running out.

There will be no loco attached at times during the Highlander split & join. Also during the Edinburgh Lowlander run-round (during which rooms may be occupied).

Presumably ETS is also shut off during the Lowlander split/join (otherwise the shunter would be handling a 1.5kV live plug) and when travelling under neutral sections.

 

[trebor79]

I'm not about to argue that flying isn't cheaper but as a matter of interest what times would this involve (including when you have to get up and when you get home to bed)?

I did a day trip Stansted to Edinburgh for work last week. Up at 5am (I live about an hour from Stansted), home by 2330.
To me that was preferable to a terrible nights sleep on the sleeper.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Don’t they spend a certain amount of time (albeit only a few minutes and at reduced output) on battery power during engine swaps at Edinburgh when operating the Highlander diagram?

I was subject to an extended delay southbound at Edinburgh waiting for the Inverness portion and couldn't sleep anyway. The coaches went into a low power mode initially but did shut down completely after an hour or so.

 

[Davester50]

I did a day trip Stansted to Edinburgh for work last week. Up at 5am (I live about an hour from Stansted), home by 2330.
To me that was preferable to a terrible nights sleep on the sleeper.

I guess you (and I for that matter) are not the market they're aiming at these days anyway.
I see it as aimed at the Malcolm and Cressidas that don't do flying now.

 

[Trainbike46]

I've been looking at travel options for one day a week (mid-week) travel from Inverkeithing/Edinburgh to London.

Seats on the sleeper vary between £50-90, typically averaging £70, for the days in question. £140 return but no bed for 2 nights on the trot. I sleep terribly sat upright (unless I've had a litre of G&T but that's fraught with problems).

Perhaps a Flexipass for a Classic room - £180 on the way out, £70 for seat on the way back, for £250 return.

Or suck it up for £360 return on the Flexipass.

Non-CS options for a return after a working day aren't any cheaper.

Frustratingly I can fly for £65 return, even at peak hours. But I really don't want to fly.

I get that it's a tourist option, and it's often fully or mostly booked up. I think I'm most frustrated that the option to book a shared berth has gone, as the Classic twin rooms start at around £175, and £175 for a return journey including a bed to actually get some sleep is value I could afford.

If I want to sleep both ways, it's £250 return more than flying basically (allocating a healthy budget for transferring from airport to destination), for let's say 44 weeks a year, £11k extra expensive to take the environmentally-friendly option.

Can't help but feel we're missing opportunities.

If travelling from Edinburgh, you could consider sleeping at home and taking the 5:40 am LNER (arriving at 9:40)?

Sharing with strangers is never coming back. Too much of a minefield for Serco.

Having something like the single person pods that nightjet has in their new trains would be good. It prevents the issues around sharing, while offering a higher capacity, cheaper option compared to the sleeper rooms and a higher comfort option compared to the seats

 

[JohnMcL7]

I'm not about to argue that flying isn't cheaper but as a matter of interest what times would this involve (including when you have to get up and when you get home to bed)?

I haven't checked the current flights but last time I went down I was able to get a late evening flight so left a bit after the sleeper and on the way back I stayed near the airport and took a 7am flight back on the way home. It did mean an earlier start on the way back but I still had a much better night's sleep and the total cost was much less than the sleeper.

 

[Cowley]

A lot of the stuff about sharing sleeper berths etc is now in the thread below, so please carry that discussion on there.

Sleeper trains: Individual sleeping pods or sharing a cabin with a stranger. Which is more preferable?

Something something "police advice" was what CS said when I asked them a while ago. However my guess is they fill the trains up anyway so there's no incentive to allow sharing. Perhaps also some solo travelers who would have otherwise shared opt for single rooms. mods note - split from this...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks all

 

[kylemore]

I guess you (and I for that matter) are not the market they're aiming at these days anyway.
I see it as aimed at the Malcolm and Cressidas that don't do flying now.

And on just above minimum wage I'm more than happy to be subsidising Malcolm and Cressida!

 

[BRX]

I wasn't aware that Malcolm had been added to the list of stereotype posh names.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wasn't aware that Malcolm had been added to the list of stereotype posh names.

Malcolm & Cressida are characters in Viz…

 

[jagardner1984]

I think there are plenty of people not “posh” who, whilst perhaps being not orange paint spreaders of JSO - certainly feel more than a bit uncomfortable by the scale and growth of domestic flying and its obvious climate impact, but whose lives are busy enough not to really have scope for most of a day of travel in each direction for work or family reasons (which applies to a host of destinations beyond the central belt or beyond central London, or both).

It is a pity there isn’t more of an appetite in the rail industry to cater to challenge the budget airlines more directly. If the sleeper is operating full many nights, I am surprised someone doesn’t seek to run a “slow train” overnight along the same route (so no NR issues), at similar times, with a compulsory reservation “every other seat” policy, sold at a premium from the usual advance fares, but undercutting the sleeper. Either Glasgow via Edinburgh or vice versa.

I read something along these lines online most days of the week. Especially the reply at the bottom …

 

[JamieL]

I read something along these lines online most days of the week. Especially the reply at the bottom …

Yeah, that last comment was probably lifted off this forum!

 

[route101]

I'm on southbound sleeper tonight from Glasgow and despite booking classic fare I have been given a double room. Worried I'm in wrong room and someone will appear.