Caledonian Sleeper

[JamieL]

Just got text that lowlander is canceled tonight

Same. Text says the ECML and WCML are both closed due to "essential maintenance". Anyone have any info?

Text/email:

We are very sorry to inform you that your journey tonight with Caledonian Sleeper is cancelled.
The reason for the cancellation is out of our control and due to Network Rail closing the East Coast and West Coast main lines in both directions completely as they are conducting essential works and unable to provide an alternative. This means there is no rail travel possible between Scotland and England tonight.
If travel is essential, you can stay onboard our train in Glasgow Central overnight with our crew as it will remain on the platform until 07.30am. You can then complete your onward journey tomorrow morning with LNER or Avanti as we have arranged for your ticket to be transferred and accepted anytime on the 22.05.23 Please contact us by Live Chat at https://www.sleeper.scot/contact-us/ to let us know if you would like to stay onboard.
You will receive a 100% refund for your journey. If you have booked your tickets directly with Caledonian Sleeper, either through out website or on a call with our Guest Service Centre team, you do not need to contact us, we will process your refund back to your original payment method. If you have booked via any other retailer, then please visit https://www.sleeper.scot/contact-us/ to complete a contact form to allow this refund to be processed.
We are extremely sorry for the inconvenience this may cause and look forward to welcoming you on board again in future.

 

[bcarmicle]

From what I gather, planned engineering works on the WCML and emergency engineering works on the ECML between York and Doncaster.

 

[AY1975]

From what I gather, planned engineering works on the WCML and emergency engineering works on the ECML between York and Doncaster.

I presume this means that the Highlander is either also caped or will be able to get through on either the ECML or the WCML before the works start.

 

[popeter45]

Looking

I presume this means that the Highlander is either also caped or will be able to get through on either the ECML or the WCML before the works start.

Yea all services cancelled

 

[GordonT]

ECML problem is a knackered "nose" - a critical component of the pointwork at Colton Junction. Requires a replacement part, presumably sized specifically for the particular set of points.

 

[InOban]

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1660210395804585986?t=a0ldzsuGybrjUm03ZVwAkQ&s=19

And here's a picture of the offending item.
I guess that there are diversionary routes for diesels but it could hardly be in a worse location for electrics.

 

[jagardner1984]

I wonder whether anyone records to that level of detail how much delay repay that one metre section has cost the industry (and therefore the taxpayer) today alone (assuming it’s fixed tonight.)

As much as clearly outside CS’ control - the impact on their business of another night of entirely lost revenue must be significant …

 

[D6130]

(assuming it’s fixed tonight.)

Given that it's an extremely long, heavy and expensive bespoke high-speed crossing unit, I wouldn't bet on that. Let's hope that Network Rail have a spare one handy....otherwise a replacement will have to be manufactured and then transported to site before being installed.

 

[JamieL]

It is pretty intolerable really. No blame to the CS here - their offering of refund, accommodation and transferable tickets is all they can do - but it shows a severe lack of contingency planning and spare capacity in the British railway planning and infrastructure. In what other industry would it be regarded as 'okay' that two of two national arteries can become unavailable in anything other than an 'act of God'? The railways really are for people who don't really need to get to their destinations.

Going to have to drive this evening now as no other public transport can meet my requirements.

 

[jfollows]

Of course there's an alternative route over which the trains could be diverted, but it doesn't suit the way in which we run our trains today to allow it to be contemplated.

 

[SuspectUsual]

How difficult would it have been to divert York - Leeds - Doncaster?

Presumably possible but not easy enough?

 

[popeter45]

How difficult would it have been to divert York - Leeds - Doncaster?

Presumably possible but not easy enough?

Not electrified

 

[zwk500]

Where are the works on the WCML?

How difficult would it have been to divert York - Leeds - Doncaster?

Presumably possible but not easy enough?

No need to go to Leeds - the issue is at Colton Jn so could have done Hambleton South-Gascoigne Wood-Church Fenton -York (or via Knottingly and Milford if easier for route knowledge). Although that would have meant no train hotel power as the 92 would have to pan down and I think battery isolated, while the diesel on the front would not have been able to provide it's own ETS (if it has it) to the train.

Leeds-Church Fenton has no wires at all, Church Fenton-Colton has wires up but they're not energised yet. So only route past Colton Jn needs a diesel.

 

[popeter45]

Where are the works on the WCML?

Calstairs junction

 

[paul1609]

Does the Yorkshire branch line really not have reversible signalling in 2023?

 

[popeter45]

Does the Yorkshire branch line really not have reversible signalling in 2023?

Issue is they need to take the entire junction out of use as not a simple job, gonna need cranes, large crew etc

 

[jfollows]

Does the Yorkshire branch line really not have reversible signalling in 2023?

Rhetorical question I know, but see https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/yrk#LINK_2

 

[zwk500]

Calstairs junction

Leave the 73s on at Edinburgh, work forward via Newcastle and Hexham, change locos in Carlisle.

Does the Yorkshire branch line really not have reversible signalling in 2023?

It hasn't needed to be resignalled since it was built (at a time of national penny-pinching, mind you), so no. Also as mentioned at least the 2 electrified lines will be out for the works.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As much as clearly outside CS’ control - the impact on their business of another night of entirely lost revenue must be significant …

Network Rail will be liable for this one; Caledonian Sleeper will not be out of pocket.

 

[zwk500]

Network Rail will be liable for this one; Caledonian Sleeper will not be out of pocket.

CS may not get everything back, although it'll be costing NR a fortune - they will be paying compensation to CS for the engineering diversion in the first place and then it'll be Schedule 8 payments for the infrastructure failure causing the cancellation of the diverted train. However Sch.8 is not directly linked to Delay Repay so it's not definite that CS will be completely covered - although they could easily end up with more compensation from NR than they pay out in Delay Repay, so it works both ways.

 

[43066]

ECML problem is a knackered "nose" - a critical component of the pointwork at Colton Junction. Requires a replacement part, presumably sized specifically for the particular set of points.

Fair to say it’s a pretty important location to get right!

 

[najaB]

In what other industry would it be regarded as 'okay' that two of two national arteries can become unavailable in anything other than an 'act of God'?

A broken switch nose falls into the category of 'act of god' to my mind. The fact that it coincides with the WCML being shut for repairs and upgrades (you know so that things like broken switch noses don't happen!) is just unfortunate timing.

 

[jagardner1984]

Network Rail will be liable for this one; Caledonian Sleeper will not be out of pocket.

Understand that - my point is - refund or not and understandable or not - the loss of business comes from those having to reschedule plans at a few hours notice, being less likely to book again.

 

[Caleb2010]

While everyone decides what CS could have or should be doing, don’t some of you maybe think that, if there was a way to keep service’s running- they might have already tried to make something work, and let’s face it CS like all other TOC’s are beholden to Network Rail- and if they say no, it doesn’t go!

 

[najaB]

Understand that - my point is - refund or not and understandable or not - the loss of business comes from those having to reschedule plans at a few hours notice, being less likely to book again.

When I used to do customer service training a key point I made is that you don't win loyalty from your customers when things go to plan, you win loyalty by the way you treat them when things go wrong. I'd say that, from what's been reported, CS have handled this about as well as anyone could - short of booking people onto flights.

 

[jagardner1984]

When I used to do customer service training a key point I made is that you don't win loyalty from your customers when things go to plan, you win loyalty by the way you treat them when things go wrong. I'd say that, from what's been reported, CS have handled this about as well as anyone could - short of booking people onto flights.

Completely agree.

I would guess the early Pendolinos will be very very busy to get to London tomorrow.

It would be the "joined up rail" thing to do, to give some kind of vouchers to CS Passengers for food/drink on the morning train, as something that would cost almost nothing to offer, but would, as you say, go a little way to make a bad experience into a slightly less bad experience.

Would also be interested to know how crewing works in these situations, as presumably crews are out of place and the knock on to their next days off ...

I would guess that on a Friday night / Saturday morning, everyone goes back to their home base, and then departs from their home base on a Sunday night ? Or am I being too logical ?

 

[DelW]

CS may not get everything back, although it'll be costing NR a fortune - they will be paying compensation to CS for the engineering diversion in the first place and then it'll be Schedule 8 payments for the infrastructure failure causing the cancellation of the diverted train. However Sch.8 is not directly linked to Delay Repay so it's not definite that CS will be completely covered - although they could easily end up with more compensation from NR than they pay out in Delay Repay, so it works both ways.

It's not just CS, it's trashed LNER services today as well. Lots of cancellations showing, some trains have got through but showing heavy delays south of York so presumably either running wrong line or going via a diversionary route.

 

[JamieL]

A broken switch nose falls into the category of 'act of god' to my mind. The fact that it coincides with the WCML being shut for repairs and upgrades (you know so that things like broken switch noses don't happen!) is just unfortunate timing.

"Act of God" incidents have a very specific definition, namely "any accident or event that is not influenced by man", in essence a natural disaster. It does not refer to mechanical failure for which any competent authority would have contingency plans in place for.

Fully agree about your point about CS doing all they could here though - this is Network Rail's incompetence over failing to contingency plan ECML failure concurrent with the Carstairs works. A point I made on this forum before the Carstairs work even began. 'We know best' was the general tone I got back - and here we are.

 

[jfollows]

When I used to do customer service training a key point I made is that you don't win loyalty from your customers when things go to plan, you win loyalty by the way you treat them when things go wrong. I'd say that, from what's been reported, CS have handled this about as well as anyone could - short of booking people onto flights.

I also agree totally.
My mantra when I ran my own company was this, and "under-promise and over-deliver".
I once went to see a customer who was having problems and had staff who said something along the lines of "if you'd gone with Cisco rather than IBM it would have been fine". I - IBM - was happy to see that the customer boss recognised that sometimes things go wrong and we were fixing the problem. The nay-sayers in the company were subsequently sacked or otherwise laid-off I gather.
PS Prior to working for myself I had colleagues who over-promised and under-delivered, just about without fail. It was embarrassing to be in their company when they made "promises" to others which I knew they wouldn't live up to.

 

[zwk500]

It's not just CS, it's trashed LNER services today as well. Lots of cancellations showing, some trains have got through but showing heavy delays south of York so presumably either running wrong line or going via a diversionary route.

LNER at least have some bi-modes that could have nipped round via Church Fenton if the 2 Leeds Lines are open through Colton.