Caledonian Sleeper

[43096]

I've noticed the talk (read: rumours) of 67s coming up to help the 73s has also seemingly died off.

It's more than talk/rumours: GBRf are in the process of taking on lease the two 67s that Colas were using (67023/027), but getting them into an acceptable state is taking longer than anticipated.

 

[BRX]

I thought there was something about the ETS for the mk5s that meant it could only be supplied by a 73/9 or 92.

So, surprising to hear a 37/4 can do it. Maybe only on the relatively unchallenging stretch between Edinburgh and Aberdeen, and would have no chance on the Inverness/Fort William portions?

 

[Peter Sarf]

1M16 is the southbound.

Correct.

 

[43 302]

To follow up, the test of 37403s ETS on load 4 Mk5s was indeed succesful, (although that was only stationary) and so it can now be considered for emergency use - including hauling a dead 73/9 to act as coupler translater. Only two of the drivers sign it however.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I thought there was something about the ETS for the mk5s that meant it could only be supplied by a 73/9 or 92.

So, surprising to hear a 37/4 can do it. Maybe only on the relatively unchallenging stretch between Edinburgh and Aberdeen, and would have no chance on the Inverness/Fort William portions?

A 73 would be needed as a translator vehicle, but as I understand it, it is only the ETS load required by Mark 5 stock that precludes any other class from supplying it. Only a 92 has an ETS rating sufficient to supply 16 mark 5s, and nothing else except a 73 can supply eight. But it looks like a 37/4 might manage 4.

 

[43 302]

A 73 would be needed as a translator vehicle, but as I understand it, it is only the ETS load required by Mark 5 stock that precludes any other class from supplying it. Only a 92 has an ETS rating sufficient to supply 16 mark 5s, and nothing else except a 73 can supply eight. But it looks like a 37/4 might manage 4.

I am sure many different locos can supply ETS to eight Mk5s! Indeed only a 92 for 16 though.

 

[alistairlees]

What’s the ETS of a mark 5 coach, please?

 

[jagardner1984]

I understood the challenge with other traction was both the 1500v ETS and the dellner coupler being non standard on freight locos.

It makes you wonder whether the hope is to prolong the life of the 73s until such time as wires stretch further north, or if some other traction may be upgraded to give further options.

 

[JamesT]

I understood the challenge with other traction was both the 1500v ETS and the dellner coupler being non standard on freight locos.

It makes you wonder whether the hope is to prolong the life of the 73s until such time as wires stretch further north, or if some other traction may be upgraded to give further options.

Do the Class 73s particularly need their life prolonging? They were completely refurbished including new engines only 10 years ago. Assuming their structure is sound they should be good for some time.

 

[najaB]

Do the Class 73s particularly need their life prolonging? They were completely refurbished including new engines only 10 years ago. Assuming their structure is sound they should be good for some time.

Wires reaching Aberdeen is still the better part of 15 years out from now though.

 

[JModulo]

I understood the challenge with other traction was both the 1500v ETS and the dellner coupler being non standard on freight locos.

It makes you wonder whether the hope is to prolong the life of the 73s until such time as wires stretch further north, or if some other traction may be upgraded to give further options.

It doesn't have to be 1500v though. The APS Converter on the Mk5s can handle 3 different voltages. 1500v AC, 1000v AC, and 900v DC.

 

[43096]

It doesn't have to be 1500v though. The APS Converter on the Mk5s can handle 3 different voltages. 1500v AC, 1000v AC, and 900v DC.

Thank you for clarifying that.

900V DC is BR standard ETH supply fir diesel locos and is what the 73s supply. The 1500V is what the Class 92s supply and is required for full 16-car sets due to the current draw.

 

[popeter45]

any idea whats the cause of tomorow the lowland southbound skipping glasgow is?

 

[driverd]

any idea whats the cause of tomorow the lowland southbound skipping glasgow is?

It's terminating at Edinburgh tonight and I've been told I will be getting the boot upon arrival. Not ideal when I was hoping for a good night's kip (after being out til 5am last night and nursing a hangover all day)...

Edit:
So just a little feedback from last night. All in all a good experience on the sleeper - I was offered a free upgrade due one of many non-descript technical faults so benefitted from a shower. Lovely to be able to have a wash in the morning and feel fresh.

As mentioned, for an unknown reason (non-descript technical fault), the Glasgow portion terminated at Edinburgh. The train ran as 15 carriages and there was a spare 92 to haul at Edinburgh, so what the fault was I'm still unsure. The staff were persistent in that all customers must disembark immediately at Edinburgh. I just don't understand why they advertise a room vacation by 08.00 if the reality is 06.50 (although with delay picked up at Preston, it was 07.15). I don't know about anyone else but time in bed, is for me, a big factor when I book the sleeper (eg: I generally dodge the night riviera because of the short duration of the journey). Its certainly annoying when you're expecting to vacate at 08.45 (as advertised, in Glasgow), and instead get turfed out around 2 hours earlier.

The mk5s are certainly growing on me, generally a very good ride on the WCML. Less can be said about the jointed track on the WHL (from previous sleeper trips), but as far as the lowlander is concerned, I'd say I sleep far better when the train is in motion than stationary. My only real gripe with them (and this isn't a fault of the stock), is the mattresses desperately need replacing throughout the train. I'm of slim build and weigh 75kg, but my hips firmly touch the solid base of the bed with the mattress providing sweet little comfort. As I was travelling solo, I wish I had taken the duvet off the top bunk and used the bottom bunk duvet a mattress topper. It's a bit embarrassing, really, when you're asking people to pay in excess of £200 for something that is so easily replaced (and a real bare minimum - even premier inn manage a decent matress).

But yes, disruption dealt with adequately, and I'm reasonably happy with the journey.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The staff were persistent in that all customers must disembark immediately at Edinburgh. I just don't understand why they advertise a room vacation by 08.00 if the reality is 06.50 (although with delay picked up at Preston, it was 07.15).

I suspect it's because instead of splitting the rake and half carrying on to Glasgow, the entire train needed to move to Polmadie using the booked path for the front half to carry on towards Glasgow Central?

( I'm assuming this was an ECML diversion night ).

 

[driverd]

I suspect it's because instead of splitting the rake and half carrying on to Glasgow, the entire train needed to move to Polmadie using the booked path for the front half to carry on towards Glasgow Central?

( I'm assuming this was an ECML diversion night ).

Unfortunately no, it ran WCML. I was wondering if perhaps they were taking the whole thing to Polmadie in any case, maybe to rectify the many technical faults. Looking at RTT, the train left at 0818, so it seems it wouldn't have been any issue to remain in bed an extra hour - oh well!

 

[BRX]

It's been discussed here before, that there seems to be an established habit of telling people they have to get off the train soon after arrival even if it's before what's given in timetables etc as the time that berths can be occupied until. At least on arrival at Euston.

 

[InOban]

Unfortunately no, it ran WCML. I was wondering if perhaps they were taking the whole thing to Polmadie in any case, maybe to rectify the many technical faults. Looking at RTT, the train left at 0818, so it seems it wouldn't have been any issue to remain in bed an extra hour - oh well!

I'm guessing here but if it ran WCML and with Carstairs station being currently out of use, it would have to run complete into Edinburgh. It may also be an issue with capacity at Glasgow while they upgrade platform 1.

 

[jfollows]

It's been discussed here before, that there seems to be an established habit of telling people they have to get off the train soon after arrival even if it's before what's given in timetables etc as the time that berths can be occupied until. At least on arrival at Euston.

And it's completely off-putting to a potential passenger like me who is only interested in the sleeper if I don't get turfed out early at the destination station. How many passengers have they lost by this behaviour to date? I can imagine that it could sour the experience to the extent that many potential repeat passengers make other choices.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Unfortunately no, it ran WCML. I was wondering if perhaps they were taking the whole thing to Polmadie in any case, maybe to rectify the many technical faults. Looking at RTT, the train left at 0818, so it seems it wouldn't have been any issue to remain in bed an extra hour - oh well!

Don't both halves spend the day at Polmadie anyway? In Mark 3 days the sets were actually swapped over - the one that went to Edinburgh one night returned from Glasgow the next night, and vice versa.

 

[JModulo]

Don't both halves spend the day at Polmadie anyway? In Mark 3 days the sets were actually swapped over - the one that went to Edinburgh one night returned from Glasgow the next night, and vice versa.

Yes. Both return to Polmadie during the day for cleaning and exam work.

 

[paul1609]

And it's completely off-putting to a potential passenger like me who is only interested in the sleeper if I don't get turfed out early at the destination station. How many passengers have they lost by this behaviour to date? I can imagine that it could sour the experience to the extent that many potential repeat passengers make other choices.

My experience is that 99% of passengers want to get off as soon as the train arrives. In the days of the Plymouth Portion of the Riviera the only people who stayed on the Plymouth Coach were train spotters who wanted the 08 haulage over to Platform 8.

 

[jfollows]

My experience is that 99% of passengers want to get off as soon as the train arrives. In the days of the Plymouth Portion of the Riviera the only people who stayed on the Plymouth Coach were train spotters who wanted the 08 haulage over to Platform 8.

Fair enough, but it's still a business which over-promises and under-delivers for those who believe the advertising and want to remain in their cabins until later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's been discussed here before, that there seems to be an established habit of telling people they have to get off the train soon after arrival even if it's before what's given in timetables etc as the time that berths can be occupied until. At least on arrival at Euston.

Why not just stop advertising that? Doubt it would put anyone off.

 

[jfollows]

Why not just stop advertising that? Doubt it would put anyone off.

Exactly, and that's my point - my mantra was always "under-promise and over-deliver" and not otherwise. If you don't expect to be able to remain until 8am (or whenever) on arrival then it won't be a problem for most.

 

[BRX]

My experience is that 99% of passengers want to get off as soon as the train arrives.

I'm going to assume that this is your speculation, rather than your experience, unless you regularly ask 100% of passengers what their preference is.

It's pretty common for sleeper trains to advertise a "vacate by" time; you see this on the continent too, and where an arrival is early in the morning, the vacate by time will be of interest to anyone who wants to get as much sleep as they are able to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

Why not just stop advertising that? Doubt it would put anyone off.

Part of the problem with having no advertised "vacate by" time is that the actual arrival time is quite often earlier than that on the timetable. And if people are being booted off the train even before the advertised *arrival* time then as a prospective passenger you effectvely have no way of knowing what to expect at all.

 

[trainophile]

Hard luck if you're booted off early and there's no facilities open nearby. Even Spoons doesn't open until 08:00. What are you supposed to do?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm going to assume that this is your speculation, rather than your experience, unless you regularly ask 100% of passengers what their preference is.

It's pretty common for sleeper trains to advertise a "vacate by" time; you see this on the continent too, and where an arrival is early in the morning, the vacate by time will be of interest to anyone who wants to get as much sleep as they are able to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==


Part of the problem with having no advertised "vacate by" time is that the actual arrival time is quite often earlier than that on the timetable. And if people are being booted off the train even before the advertised *arrival* time then as a prospective passenger you effectvely have no way of knowing what to expect at all.

I agree. For me a benefit of the sleeper is to get a descent nights sleep (I sleep easily on sleepers) so being booted out unnecessarily early rules out this "hotel on wheels". An example of a rubbish service reality at odds with the publicity. Unforgivable.

 

[paul1609]

I'm going to assume that this is your speculation, rather than your experience, unless you regularly ask 100% of passengers what their preference is.

It's pretty common for sleeper trains to advertise a "vacate by" time; you see this on the continent too, and where an arrival is early in the morning, the vacate by time will be of interest to anyone who wants to get as much sleep as they are able to.

The issue only arises at Terminal Stations, its pretty easy to see that nearly everybody alights when the train arrives in my opinion. As mentioned above just do away with advertising the berth available till time. Earlier boarding on departure would be much more of an incentive to me.

 

[BRX]

The issue only arises at Terminal Stations, its pretty easy to see that nearly everybody alights when the train arrives in my opinion.

Well, of course they do if the staff have told them that's what they have to do.

And I think it's fair to say that a large proportion of sleeper journeys finish at a terminal station.