Caledonian Sleeper

[PG]

There has obviously been an exponential increase in fares over the Serco years. And yet there are still dates you struggle to get a berth.

I'm curious now to ask if the passenger capacity of each train (Lowlander/Highlander) has reduced (or increased) during this time period - Mk3's to Mk5's? If so maybe revenue per train might be at similar levels?

 

[jagardner1984]

I'm curious now to ask if the passenger capacity of each train (Lowlander/Highlander) has reduced (or increased) during this time period - Mk3's to Mk5's? If so maybe revenue per train might be at similar levels?

On both the layout of the cars (the addition of En-suite and Doubles) and in the solo berth occupancy - there has been a huge reduction in available beds.

There was a definite sense through the bargain berths etc that Scotrail were trying to get involved in the budget airline price war - at least dipping their toe in that water - whilst Serco have seemed disinterested in that market from the off.

Whilst obviously inflation has taken its toll, and the trains are not the same - I found an email the other day (late 2000s) in the depths of a search from a colleague discussing the “Caledonian Solo” fare of a princely £49 for an on the day berth upgrade from an Off peak return. This is £84 in today’s money.

The first service I can get a room supplement on - next Monday - is £130 for a classic room. They have probably quite correctly identified their market is more the BA Cityflier or International tourist than the Ryanair/Travelodge customer.

 

[Butts]

On both the layout of the cars (the addition of En-suite and Doubles) and in the solo berth occupancy - there has been a huge reduction in available beds.

There was a definite sense through the bargain berths etc that Scotrail were trying to get involved in the budget airline price war - at least dipping their toe in that water - whilst Serco have seemed disinterested in that market from the off.

Whilst obviously inflation has taken its toll, and the trains are not the same - I found an email the other day (late 2000s) in the depths of a search from a colleague discussing the “Caledonian Solo” fare of a princely £49 for an on the day berth upgrade from an Off peak return. This is £84 in today’s money.

The first service I can get a room supplement on - next Monday - is £130 for a classic room. They have probably quite correctly identified their market is more the BA Cityflier or International tourist than the Ryanair/Travelodge customer.

More like Loganair or Eastern Airways judging by the prices.

Incidentally, talking of BA City flyer one of their Embraer's could make return trips from London City to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen brfore heading up to Inverness and comfortably beat the sleeper in.

These are fantastic pieces of kit and they don't even utilise their maximum capability on most flights.

Comparing an Embraer to an HST is a bit like the latter driving at 15mph on a Motorway

 

[najaB]

Comparing an Embraer to an HST is a bit like the latter driving at 15mph on a Motorway

I don't think this analogy is quite what you wanted it to be. Trains are famously bad at driving on roads.

 

[Robert Ambler]

More like Loganair or Eastern Airways judging by the prices.

Incidentally, talking of BA City flyer one of their Embraer's could make return trips from London City to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen brfore heading up to Inverness and comfortably beat the sleeper in.

These are fantastic pieces of kit and they don't even utilise their maximum capability on most flights.

Comparing an Embraer to an HST is a bit like the latter driving at 15mph on a Motorway

Whilst a factual comment it is entirely irrelevant to compare using any form of sleeper train with quicker forms of transport (which will of course always be quicker as sleeper trains are timed to give people time to sleep). Sleeper trains are entirely about using what would otherwise be unproductive time sleeping in a constructive way by traveling.

For say the London to Inverness Journey if you want to compare on time (or cost for that matter) to the sleeper train journey you should more accurately be comparing the time (and cost) of the journey from central London to the airport + check in + flight + journey from Inverness Airport to City Centre + check in at Hotel + time spent in Hotel until checking out the following morning. Once you think about the journey in that way you can see why for some using a sleeper train is a preferred option.

 

[BRX]

More like Loganair or Eastern Airways judging by the prices.

Incidentally, talking of BA City flyer one of their Embraer's could make return trips from London City to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen brfore heading up to Inverness and comfortably beat the sleeper in.

These are fantastic pieces of kit and they don't even utilise their maximum capability on most flights.

Comparing an Embraer to an HST is a bit like the latter driving at 15mph on a Motorway

I think you're looking for the "speculative Embraer services" thread. This one's about the Caledonian sleeper.

 

[trei2k]

Nothing appears to have departed from Euston tonight, so far...

Looks to be a cleaning issue due to strikes.

 

[John Bishop]

Nothing appears to have departed from Euston tonight, so far...

Looks to be a cleaning issue due to strikes.

1S25 departed 249L

 

[Boodiggy]

Delayed departure as stock needed to be cleaned at Euston. Usually cleaned and prepared at Wembley but I believe those staff were on strike!

 

[12LDA28C]

Delayed departure as stock needed to be cleaned at Euston. Usually cleaned and prepared at Wembley but I believe those staff were on strike!

I'm sure the passengers who had booked were informed of the situation beforehand and kept fully updated with progress once they were waiting to board... right?

 

[Sealink]

1S25 departed 249L

Delay repay refunds for everyone!

 

[BRX]

RTT appears to show the Fort William portion running very late...but with only the seated & lounge cars (so a 1:1 ratio of locos and carriages). No idea if that's what's happening in reality though.

Realtime Trains | 1Y11 0450 Edinburgh to Fort William | 15/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Y11 0450 departure from Edinburgh to Fort William on 15/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[D6130]

RTT appears to show the Fort William portion running very late...but with only the seated & lounge cars (so a 1:1 ratio of locos and carriages). No idea if that's what's happening in reality though.

Realtime Trains | 1Y11 0450 Edinburgh to Fort William | 15/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Y11 0450 departure from Edinburgh to Fort William on 15/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like it ran via Falkirk High in order to regain a few minutes....although the potential for recovering time would obviously be hindered by the 75 mph maximum speed of the 66. It will be interesting to see what happens pathing-wise once it reaches the West Highland Line.

 

[JamieL]

Serco must make a small fortune in the lounge car when the CS is that late! Passing near Helensburgh now so just starting on the West Highland section.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

RTT appears to show the Fort William portion running very late...but with only the seated & lounge cars (so a 1:1 ratio of locos and carriages). No idea if that's what's happening in reality though.

Inverness showing the full 16 coach train which it obviously would not be so perhaps RTT thrown by the very late running. Arrived Inverness 185 late from 207 late ex Edinburgh and 213 late from Perth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

Looks like it ran via Falkirk High in order to regain a few minutes....although the potential for recovering time would obviously be hindered by the 75 mph maximum speed of the 66. It will be interesting to see what happens pathing-wise once it reaches the West Highland Line.

Lost a further 18 mins in the Craigendoran area 14 mins of which incurred after the Oban came off the WHL, perhaps waiting confirmation FW driver is at Helensburgh Upper to relieve or some signalling issue?

EDIT: - apologies, waiting to follow 10.35 Qn St - Oban

 

[Steve Harris]

I'm sure the passengers who had booked were informed of the situation beforehand and kept fully updated with progress once they were waiting to board... right?

Somehow I doubt it. I was at Kings Cross the other weekend and with 10 mins to departure the Highlander still hadn't been announced or a platform given on the departure board, yet the train stood in the platform.

 

[RGM654]

Despite the very late departure from London last night and correspondingly late arrival at Waverley, after the Inverness portion had departed the FW portion appears to have sat there for almost another two hours before finally getting on its way. Something to do with driver's hours?

 

[trainophile]

Somehow I doubt it. I was at Kings Cross the other weekend and with 10 mins to departure the Highlander still hadn't been announced or a platform given on the departure board, yet the train stood in the platform.

Kings Cross? I thought they all went from Euston?

 

[zwk500]

Kings Cross? I thought they all went from Euston?

Euston was closed over the Easter weekend so the Sleeper was diverted to run to/from King's Cross

 

[JModulo]

I'm sure the passengers who had booked were informed of the situation beforehand and kept fully updated with progress once they were waiting to board... right?

Errrrrr.... no

 

[John Bishop]

After reading an account from a passenger on one of the affected services, sounds like it was a bit of a farce! Quite how CS had no idea the cleaning staff were on strike and the trains hadn’t been cleaned until late evening is beyond me!

 

[trainophile]

1S25 departed 249L

Were the passengers allowed to board and wait in the Lounge/seated coach? Or did the Euston Lounge allow them to overstay in there?

I suppose cleaning procedures have more significance when bedding etc. has to be changed, it's not just dashing through with a bin liner to sweep the litter.

 

[Steve Harris]

Kings Cross? I thought they all went from Euston?

Euston was closed over the Easter weekend so the Sleeper was diverted to run to/from King's Cross

And that's not the first time Kings Cross has been used either !

 

[Carlisle]

Quite how CS had no idea the cleaning staff were on strike and the trains hadn’t been cleaned until late evening is beyond me!

Not terribly surprising really given cleaning hasn’t been an ‘in house’ concern for many TOCs for a long time, if ever during their tenure.

 

[JModulo]

Were the passengers allowed to board and wait in the Lounge/seated coach? Or did the Euston Lounge allow them to overstay in there?

I suppose cleaning procedures have more significance when bedding etc. has to be changed, it's not just dashing through with a bin liner to sweep the litter.

Everyone was in the Avanti lounge which was due to close at 2200. After 2200 the Avanti staff left and Network Rail/CS took over.

 

[lachlan]

Everyone was in the Avanti lounge which was due to close at 2200. After 2200 the Avanti staff left and Network Rail/CS took over.

That’s good that they kept it open. Last time we were stuck at Edinburgh the train guard was confident we’d be able to get into a lounge there but unfortunately wasn’t able to (at least they managed to unlock the main waiting room, which was freezing cold but better than nothing)

 

[Tezza1978]

Going back to the "Room Supplement" debate that I and a few others had last month, its clear now that the FAQs and advice on the CS website have very definitely been completely changed/ updated on this - to exclude the possibility of upgrading on seated tickets with a supplement! CS clearly read this forum

The pricing of the sleeper continues to be a bit odd though - I've got some more work related business in Dundee next week and am looking to then be in London the next day for more meetings - so have been on the site today (hence discovering the updated FAQs!). It seems barmy that I can get the Lowlander from Edinburgh for £75 cheaper than the Highlander from Dundee for a classic cabin (£175 vs £250). The evening advance ticket Dundee to Edinburgh is just over a tenner! I'm guessing some of it may be "more cabins available" but a £75 difference seems ridiculous.

Have booked this provisionally as you can cancel up until day of travel according to Trainline business - I'm almost certain to get the Lowlander ive booked, but good to have the option for a refund if my London meetings don't happen for any reason.

 

[jagardner1984]

Going back to the "Room Supplement" debate that I and a few others had last month, its clear now that the FAQs and advice on the CS website have very definitely been completely changed/ updated on this - to exclude the possibility of upgrading on seated tickets with a supplement! CS clearly read this forum

The pricing of the sleeper continues to be a bit odd though - I've got some more work related business in Dundee next week and am looking to then be in London the next day for more meetings - so have been on the site today (hence discovering the updated FAQs!). It seems barmy that I can get the Lowlander from Edinburgh for £75 cheaper than the Highlander from Dundee for a classic cabin (£175 vs £250). The evening advance ticket Dundee to Edinburgh is just over a tenner! I'm guessing some of it may be "more cabins available" but a £75 difference seems ridiculous.

Have booked this provisionally as you can cancel up until day of travel according to Trainline business - I'm almost certain to get the Lowlander ive booked, but good to have the option for a refund if my London meetings don't happen for any reason.

I guess the Aberdeen has half the sleeping capacity of the Edinburgh so on a demand based pricing that is kind of logical.

But would agree to “Joe Public” looking on the site it would make little sense - £250 for one way travel /travel+hotel is not something any employer I’ve worked for would countenance - and whilst obviously it varies trip to trip - I’ve found recently 1st Advance at a couple of weeks notice works out roughly half the cost. The sleeper would still be my choice, but I’m happy to pay a few quid more for some legroom (I’m in “knees rammed in the back of the plastic chair for 5 hours” territory) and a cup of tea.

CS have obviously upgraded their clientele from the likes of me (/my employers).

 

[Bletchleyite]

£100 travel plus £150 hotel seems pretty typical these days. Indeed good luck getting a non rat infested hotel in London for that!

Compares poorly to a red eye flight though.

 

[BRX]

The pricing of the sleeper continues to be a bit odd though - I've got some more work related business in Dundee next week and am looking to then be in London the next day for more meetings - so have been on the site today (hence discovering the updated FAQs!). It seems barmy that I can get the Lowlander from Edinburgh for £75 cheaper than the Highlander from Dundee for a classic cabin (£175 vs £250). The evening advance ticket Dundee to Edinburgh is just over a tenner! I'm guessing some of it may be "more cabins available" but a £75 difference seems ridiculous.

A cabin sold from Dundee is a cabin that can no longer be sold from Aberdeen though. And it's not like a day train where once you've sold a seat from Dundee to London you might be able to sell the same seat to someone else from Aberdeen to Dundee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2023 ==




*****auto merged Monday 24th:




Inverness portion seems to be cancelled on RTT this evening with an ECS running in an earlier slot

Realtime Trains | 5M16 1920 Inverness to Edinburgh | 24/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5M16 1920 departure from Inverness to Edinburgh on 24/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Nothing mentioned on the CS website though.