Caledonian Sleeper

[najaB]

Can CS hosts issue excess fares?

That certainly could in ScotRail days.

 

[BRX]

The worry would be if the passenger turns up and is told they'll need to buy a proper single ticket, which would be quite a lot more than £55 and also the £55 itself would be non refundable. If they've been wrongly advised by the ticket office then it inevitably becomes the passenger's problem to argue/prove this is what's happened rather than a deliberate attempt at fare evasion.

It's also a waste of seat space, if they are being booked as a means of getting a berth - the seat is then empty when someone else could have used it.

 

[Tezza1978]

That is a matter for CS to sort out, and not one for the passenger to concern themselves with.

100%. The fact that we are having a detailed debate about this means that the situation is far from clear at all.
If for any reason I was asked to pay extra for the fare I would have done - though under protest - as I feel the way I booked was perfectly fine - my work would have paid me back any excess I had to shell out after all! But I think this scenario is very, very unlikely to happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

The worry would be if the passenger turns up and is told they'll need to buy a proper single ticket, which would be quite a lot more than £55 and also the £55 itself would be non refundable. If they've been wrongly advised by the ticket office then it inevitably becomes the passenger's problem to argue/prove this is what's happened rather than a deliberate attempt at fare evasion.

It's also a waste of seat space, if they are being booked as a means of getting a berth - the seat is then empty when someone else could have used it.

Like I said the exact same priced fare of £55 is on Scotrail's site for an equivalent journey in March or April and shows as a "Single" with no mention of the word advance. I can't see how they could argue that fare was somehow not a "proper single". How many people buy "Anytime" fares specifically for a CS journey?! The fare for the train journey only - no room - in that scenario is astronomical!

 

[alistairlees]

To use a supplement on Caledonian Sleeper you need to have an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket (or Britrail or other pass), that is valid on all operators. A "Seated Single" valid only on Caledonian Sleeper doesn't pass this test and is not valid with a supplement to get access to a room.

The ticket requirements are stated both on https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/room-supplements/ and also in the booking process.

 

[najaB]

A "Seated Single" valid only on Caledonian Sleeper doesn't pass this test and is not valid with a supplement to get access to a room.

I don't doubt that's the intention, but it says "Room Supplements allow holders of tickets which are valid in any operator to travel in Sleeper accommodation." and Caledonian Sleeper is a member of the set "any operator".

The wording should be "tickets that are not limited to a single operator".

 

[Cantab26]

To use a supplement on Caledonian Sleeper you need to have an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket (or Britrail or other pass), that is valid on all operators. A "Seated Single" valid only on Caledonian Sleeper doesn't pass this test and is not valid with a supplement to get access to a room.

The ticket requirements are stated both on https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/room-supplements/ and also in the booking process.

I see nothing on that page which expressly states that a room supplement cannot be purchased in conjunction with a Caledonian Sleeper Seating single.

It states:

Room supplements allow people who already hold National Rail tickets or those included in the list below to travel in rooms on board our service.

A seated single is a National Rail ticket.

A Room Supplement does not include a travel ticket and is not valid for travel on its own. You must hold a travel ticket to purchase a Room Supplement.

A seated single is a travel ticket and must in and of itself be valid for the specific train used.

I suspect that in practice Caledonian Sleeper would end up with more revenue from a Seated Single plus room supplement than its ORCATS share of an inter-available fare plus the supplement anyway.

 

[alistairlees]

I see nothing on that page which expressly states that a room supplement cannot be purchased in conjunction with a Caledonian Sleeper Seating single.

It states:



A seated single is a National Rail ticket.



A seated single is a travel ticket and must in and of itself be valid for the specific train used.

I suspect that in practice Caledonian Sleeper would end up with more revenue from a Seated Single plus room supplement than its ORCATS share of an inter-available fare plus the supplement anyway.

It then lists the ticket types as Anytime, Off-Peak etc. but you have not included that information here. It does not list the Caledonian Sleeper Seating Single in that list.

On the booking process it says:



text on image says (my emphasis):

This page is for booking Room Supplements only. Room Supplements allow holders of tickets which are valid in any operator to travel in Sleeper accommodation. Examples of these tickets are Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, Britrail, InterRail and some other tickets. Room Supplements do not include travel. If you are looking for combined travel and accommodation tickets you need to exit this page and re-enter the details.

Holders of Standard tickets can only purchase Classic Room Supplements.
Holders of First Class tickets can purchase either Club or Classic Room supplement.

If you have a Room Supplement without a travel ticket you will need to purchase one from another online retailer or station.

 

[BRX]

@alistairlees I think the wording could be clearer both on the "room supplements" page and the text shown during the booking process, for the reasons others have highlighted.

 

[Cantab26]

It then lists the ticket types as Anytime, Off-Peak etc. but you have not included that information here. It does not list the Caledonian Sleeper Seating Single in that list.

You have yourself missed off the incipit to the list which states:

If you have any of the tickets below, they allow travel in our seated accommodation, subject to availability. However, if you wish to travel in a one of our Rooms you will need to purchase an additional Room Supplement.

It goes without saying that a Seated Single is also valid in seated accommodation on the Sleeper - and only on the Sleeper - notwithstanding its omission from this list.

This page is for booking Room Supplements only. Room Supplements allow holders of tickets which are valid in any operator to travel in Sleeper accommodation. Examples of these tickets are Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, Britrail, InterRail and some other tickets. Room Supplements do not include travel. If you are looking for combined travel and accommodation tickets you need to exit this page and re-enter the details.

This explanatory rubric is permissive, not restrictive. It does not say that holders of tickets which are only valid on the Sleeper may not purchase a supplement.

In any event, it also expressly states that the tickets listed are not exhaustive.

Accordingly, it is necessary for all of the information to be read together - and none of it excludes the ability to purchase a supplement with a Seated Single. The overall tenor of the information is that the passenger must hold a valid travel ticket in order to utilise a room supplement (as opposed to buying only the supplement which would not be valid by itself) and such a Seated Single is self-evidently a valid travel ticket on the sleeper.

 

[BRX]

Like I said the exact same priced fare of £55 is on Scotrail's site for an equivalent journey in March or April and shows as a "Single" with no mention of the word advance. I can't see how they could argue that fare was somehow not a "proper single". How many people buy "Anytime" fares specifically for a CS journey?! The fare for the train journey only - no room - in that scenario is astronomical!

Although I agree that it could all be clearer, it does actually say when booking on Scotrail that it's valid in seated accommodation only.




The scenario in which someone might use a room supplement along with an "Anytime" (or "off-peak") fare is most likely to be with a return ticket. I have occasionally done this in the past - where I want to travel one direction by day train and the other by sleeper. It can sometimes work out cheaper than two singles, and gives more flexibility.

 

[Cantab26]

Although I agree that it could all be clearer, it does actually say when booking on Scotrail that it's valid in seated accommodation only.

That is from the ‘route’ data field for this particular flow.

An Any Permitted Anytime Single would also only be valid in seated accommodation on the Sleeper (absent a room supplement).

 

[alistairlees]

@alistairlees I think the wording could be clearer both on the "room supplements" page and the text shown during the booking process, for the reasons others have highlighted.

Oh, I agree that the wording could be a little bit clearer. Although I do also think that there’s a lot of scrabbling around for loopholes going on here!

I wrote the post in the first instance to answer the question that someone asked earlier though, in order to help them. Which I hope it has done.

 

[Tezza1978]

Accordingly, it is necessary for all of the information to be read together - and none of it excludes the ability to purchase a supplement with a Seated Single. The overall tenor of the information is that the passenger must hold a valid travel ticket in order to utilise a room supplement (as opposed to buying only the supplement which would not be valid by itself) and such a Seated Single is self-evidently a valid travel ticket on the sleeper.

Exactly how I read it - and this sums up my thought process on this when I bought the ticket & supplement even better than I could - and how I feel about it now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Valid in any operator" means an interavailable i.e. Any Permitted ticket. I suspect the reason they don't specify that is because some have pointless routes, for example route Rugby on an MKC to Glasgow ticket.

 

[Cantab26]

"Valid in any operator" means an interavailable i.e. Any Permitted ticket. I suspect the reason they don't specify that is because some have pointless routes, for example route Rugby on an MKC to Glasgow ticket.

Or route York on an Edinburgh to London ticket perhaps …

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

Exactly how I read it - and this sums up my thought process on this when I bought the ticket & supplement even better than I could - and how I feel about it now!

I suspect if Caledonian Sleeper wishes to ‘clarify’ that they don’t want people to do this then no doubt the website will be amended in short order - the TOCs do read these forums!

 

[InOban]

On the other hand there should be a facility for someone who has booked a seat but, finding that there's a cabin free, decides to upgrade to rest their weary limbs after a weekend Munro bashing. Or is there?

 

[Trainbike46]

100%. The fact that we are having a detailed debate about this means that the situation is far from clear at all.
If for any reason I was asked to pay extra for the fare I would have done - though under protest - as I feel the way I booked was perfectly fine - my work would have paid me back any excess I had to shell out after all! But I think this scenario is very, very unlikely to happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==


Like I said the exact same priced fare of £55 is on Scotrail's site for an equivalent journey in March or April and shows as a "Single" with no mention of the word advance. I can't see how they could argue that fare was somehow not a "proper single". How many people buy "Anytime" fares specifically for a CS journey?! The fare for the train journey only - no room - in that scenario is astronomical!

There are a small number of routes where it does in fact make sense to buy an anytime ticket plus either a room supplement or seat reservation , which can be obtained by calling caledonian sleeper. The seat reservation or room supplement is essential

 

[Facing Back]

Exactly how I read it - and this sums up my thought process on this when I bought the ticket & supplement even better than I could - and how I feel about it now!

Can i just confirm - you bought a CS only advance single (seated) and then a room supplement? The ticket and supplement were checked in the lounge and on the train and all was OK? Did I read you right?

 

[jagardner1984]

Playing devil’s advocate - this must be one of the few bits of the sleeper operation where manual checking is required - I presume supplements are a very small proportion of the tickets sold.

So the question is whether the infamously beleaguered Sleeper hosts want to have an argument with a passenger on a platform for whom a berth has been reserved and paid for (and will be otherwise empty), and who has a ticket for the service in question (though it would appear not the correct ticket).

It may not be right, and I suspect it will be tightened in wording or staff instruction shortly, but on the ground; I can see why someone does not want to have a row and ruin someone’s night for the sake of a few quid for their employer who (based on the few hosts I have spoken to) is broadly despised.

I believe the exact quote when trying to override a faulty door system and with a queue of passengers with room based faults down the carriage “one hundred million quid and they can’t get a f****** door to close”

 

[BRX]

My experience of the sleeper is that there's often only a very cursory ticket check when you arrive - sometimes no more than being asked your name, and if it's on the list you're directed off to the relevant cabin.

 

[Tezza1978]

Can i just confirm - you bought a CS only advance single (seated) and then a room supplement? The ticket and supplement were checked in the lounge and on the train and all was OK? Did I read you right?

Exactly so mate. Bought CS only ticket on TL Business on account, and then a room supplement on CS Website on my credit card. Both checked at both the lounge and on the train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2023 ==

On the other hand there should be a facility for someone who has booked a seat but, finding that there's a cabin free, decides to upgrade to rest their weary limbs after a weekend Munro bashing. Or is there?

Would agree with this and it surely makes sense both as a service and to maximise loadings/revenue for CS.

 

[airantraigh]

On the other hand there should be a facility for someone who has booked a seat but, finding that there's a cabin free, decides to upgrade to rest their weary limbs after a weekend Munro bashing. Or is there?

Expanding on my previous contributions- I asked initially for an upgrade from a seat to a cabin at a ticket office, but the staff member wasn’t sure as they said that they didn’t do it very often…. Which is understandable and also implied too me that deep down in the system there’s a way. I would have phoned CS myself to check with them at the time- if I was a person that could handle wrangling through automated systems etc- which I am not, and I just assumed it would be okay, and if not I would be happy enough to pay the difference if I was made aware at the time of journey - but I couldn’t justify forking out the upfront price on a ‘normal’ cabin rate on a student budget considering I’d already shelled out 36 quid (railcard discount) on a seat ticket that I had come to the conclusion would work in combination.
Both of my tickets were bought on CS website, the first a week before and the supplement the day of.
I would hate to feel that I did anything wrong by buying that ticket combo, but I genuinely thought at the time it would have worked, although I am aware it does cause the issue of taking away seated space from those who might need it more.
I wish there could be more clarification on it, so folks like myself and Tezza1978 don’t get caught out in future.

 

[Facing Back]

Exactly so mate. Bought CS only ticket on TL Business on account, and then a room supplement on CS Website on my credit card. Both checked at both the lounge and on the train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2023 ==

Muchas Gracias

 

[philthetube]

I can't see an issue with being able to pay the supplement on the train, if berths are available it is extra income for CS.. no point in turning cash away when the berth would be empty. The problem is if this route to a cheaper ticket can be used in advance

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see an issue with being able to pay the supplement on the train, if berths are available it is extra income for CS.. no point in turning cash away when the berth would be empty. The problem is if this route to a cheaper ticket can be used in advance

Logically though it should be an excess to the cheapest available berth fare, which would avoid the anomaly.

Presumably the supplements are priced such that half an off peak return plus a supplement makes a reasonable fare, as that's the intended use case.

(notably the messy routeing in place to Edinburgh at the moment seems to remove the possibility of doing this, but as LNER are pricing that in singles it's less important).

 

[JamieL]

Perhaps one thing that safeguards any CS revenue is that the ticket regime across the railways is quite complex and I doubt that many people have the detail to really exploit the system on mass.

 

[najaB]

En masse isn't a term I would associated with the Sleeper in any context!

 

[PG]

Logically though it should be an excess to the cheapest available berth fare, which would avoid the anomaly.

Once the train has departed any extra fare is better than nothing - an unsold berth is akin to a perishable commodity so I'd argue that it should be a discounted rate as the potential occupant can just say no thanks and remain in their seat.

 

[najaB]

Once the train has departed any extra fare is better than nothing - an unsold berth is akin to a perishable commodity so I'd argue that it should be a discounted rate as the potential occupant can just say no thanks and remain in their seat.

Agreed. This was the same principle as the late-lamented Bargain Berths. Sell them off cheap a day or two in advance if nobody has paid full price.

 

[185143]

My experience of the sleeper is that there's often only a very cursory ticket check when you arrive - sometimes no more than being asked your name, and if it's on the list you're directed off to the relevant cabin.

Full ticket check in the seats last time I travelled!