Caledonian Sleeper

[Facing Back]

Another of your sweeping generalisations that you think apply everywhere because you say so regularly. My experience is a 9am start.

Horses for courses.

So to avoid generalisations, my company only has 9am meetings under unusual circumstances and then generally they are on Teams and people travel when they are done. Increasingly clients with multiple sites are adopting similar policies.

I am aware of a half dozen companies, all of them in some form of manufacturing where just about everyone is on-site where "being there" at 9am is absolutely required.

Lots of sectors are different of course. Retail often have stand-ups before the store opens etc etc etc.

Increasingly I am seeing people starting work earlier - at home - say 7.30 or 8.00 am, waiting until it is quiet, then coming into the office for several hours. On many of our projects we've moved the daily mornings until 11.00 to support this and it works well for us on these.

Under no circumstances am I insisting that someone gets on a train at 4.30am. If someone needs to be somewhere at 9.00 and chooses to stay with family rather than a night in a hotel then that is their call

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2023 ==

because it is not time-competitive with the ECML without golborne. I thought there would still be an Edinburgh-birmingham service

There is a London Edinburgh service now on the WCML. It generally seems busy to me

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another of your sweeping generalisations that you think apply everywhere because you say so regularly. My experience is a 9am start.

What industry do you work in, out of interest? It could be different depending on that. If a particular industry tends to work 8-4:30 rather than the more usual 9-5:30 then I could see why they'd do that, but equally someone who starts something for visitors at 9 when they know they have a long journey and will be travelling on the day is either inconsiderate or just plain wilfully obnoxious.

Even with a hotel, 9am on a Monday is pretty rotten, it takes family time, requires travel in personal time and potentially messes up a weekend away. Weekly commuters may do it, though from experience in IT they tend just to arrive later, maybe 11, leave about 2-3 on the Thursday/Friday, and make up the time during the week by working until about 7, which is fine as there's little to do bar sit in a hotel, and often some working time without colleagues about can be very productive.

 

[Trainbike46]

There is a London Edinburgh service now on the WCML. It generally seems busy to me

That is an edinburgh-birmingham service that got merged with a london-wolverhampton service. It's purpose is to connect edinburgh with stations along the WCML. It also only runs every 2 hours, vs 2-3 trains an hour over the ECML

 

[JamieL]

What industry do you work in, out of interest? It could be different depending on that. If a particular industry tends to work 8-4:30 rather than the more usual 9-5:30 then I could see why they'd do that, but equally someone who starts something for visitors at 9 when they know they have a long journey and will be travelling on the day is either inconsiderate or just plain wilfully obnoxious.

Even with a hotel, 9am on a Monday is pretty rotten, it takes family time, requires travel in personal time and potentially messes up a weekend away. Weekly commuters may do it, though from experience in IT they tend just to arrive later, maybe 11, leave about 2-3 on the Thursday/Friday, and make up the time during the week by working until about 7, which is fine as there's little to do bar sit in a hotel, and often some working time without colleagues about can be very productive.

it is rarely about specific start time - it is the networking opportunities that arise (particularly at either end of the day), the ability to 'walk the patch', raise your profile and (for end of day) not having to dash off to get the last day train home etc. All aspects that are likely to be beneficial for the professionals most likely to use the Lowlander for their commute.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it is rarely about specific start time - it is the networking opportunities that arise (particularly at either end of the day), the ability to 'walk the patch', raise your profile and (for end of day) not having to dash off to get the last day train home etc. All aspects that are likely to be beneficial for the professionals most likely to use the Lowlander for their commute.

Very little networking goes on at the start of the day in offices I've worked in. People aren't awake enough. First coffee over emails is the norm.

A 2000 ish departure from London would provide for an after work drink or meal.

 

[najaB]

Very little networking goes on at the start of the day in offices I've worked in. People aren't awake enough. First coffee over emails is the norm.

A 2000 ish departure from London would provide for an after work drink or meal.

Problem is, that means getting to Glasgow/Edinburgh around midnight - which is fine if you live locally, but not so much if you live some way away - getting to bed at, say, 2am after a 3am start the day before.

 

[JamieL]

Very little networking goes on at the start of the day in offices I've worked in. People aren't awake enough. First coffee over emails is the norm.

My experience is quite the opposite - the morning slots before people get sucked into meetings all day is ideal for networking. Perhaps too many of your colleagues are taking your advice and getting up at 0200 to stagger to Glasgow Central for an 0430 departure!

A 2000 ish departure from London would provide for an after work drink or meal.

And no onward connection at the far end!

 

[XAM2175]

You would run more beds at times of high demand; obviously you can't do it per night, it would be seasonal which is what already happens with some of the formation lengths being reduced in the winter.

Only as much as platforms (and blocks and loops along the way, where applicable) allow, though. Shuffling the train about Waverly in the middle of the night is nowhere near as big a fuss as it would be if you needed to split an over-length rake over two platforms at Euston in morning peak.

 

[lachlan]

That is an edinburgh-birmingham service that got merged with a london-wolverhampton service. It's purpose is to connect edinburgh with stations along the WCML. It also only runs every 2 hours, vs 2-3 trains an hour over the ECML

Indeed. I would be surprised if anyone took it end-to-end unless their destination happened to be easily reachable from Euston station. Feels very slow with stops all the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I would be surprised if anyone took it end-to-end unless their destination happened to be easily reachable from Euston station. Feels very slow with stops all the time.

Quite a lot of people do because it offers cheap Advances compared to the ECML or fast Glasgows. Use for most of its length e.g. from MKC is also not unknown (particularly since the North Wales calls swapped to Liverpool, making connections into it at Crewe poor) though that won't be an option once the full service starts as it will no longer be a semifast south of Brum.

 

[lachlan]

Quite a lot of people do because it offers cheap Advances compared to the ECML or fast Glasgows. Use for most of its length e.g. from MKC is also not unknown (particularly since the North Wales calls swapped to Liverpool, making connections into it at Crewe poor) though that won't be an option once the full service starts as it will no longer be a semifast south of Brum.

That's worth noting, I usually get suggested east coast journeys though imagine that'll be due to Avanti not releasing their tickets early enough. I have used it for Edinburgh -Birmingham a few times

Milton Keynes to Glasgow/Edinburgh has been quoted as a journey that will become less convenient due to HS2 presumably taking over these services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's worth noting, I usually get suggested east coast journeys though imagine that'll be due to Avanti not releasing their tickets early enough. I have used it for Edinburgh -Birmingham a few times

Milton Keynes to Glasgow/Edinburgh has been quoted as a journey that will become less convenient due to HS2 presumably taking over these services.

Not just HS2 - when the 807s arrive Avanti plan to make that service fast to Coventry.

 

[Trainbike46]

That's worth noting, I usually get suggested east coast journeys though imagine that'll be due to Avanti not releasing their tickets early enough. I have used it for Edinburgh -Birmingham a few times

Milton Keynes to Glasgow/Edinburgh has been quoted as a journey that will become less convenient due to HS2 presumably taking over these services.

Only once have I seen the Euston journey being cheaper than doing the journey on the ECML, but of course if you are tied to a very specific time, or are just (un)lucky with advance availability it sometimes makes sense. Though I would be pretty conifdent most people arriving in Edinburgh on one of the euston services didn't start in london

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is to be fair a quite large passenger turnover at New St.

 

[Speed43125]

Only once have I seen the Euston journey being cheaper than doing the journey on the ECML, but of course if you are tied to a very specific time, or are just (un)lucky with advance availability it sometimes makes sense. Though I would be pretty conifdent most people arriving in Edinburgh on one of the euston services didn't start in london

it (used to?) connect pretty handily with a long dwell at Wolves for an XC Cotswold line south coast service that seemed also to produce decent churn not to mention a few lift cycles with invariably pretty heavy luggage carried.

 

[Bald Rick]

Problem is, that means getting to Glasgow/Edinburgh around midnight - which is fine if you live locally, but not so much if you live some way away - getting to bed at, say, 2am after a 3am start the day before.

Whilst this is true, the point is that some people do live locally, and therefore may well be tempted with a shorter time on the day train. And that it may only need a smallish proportion of people to do this to make the lowlander, or at least a full length lowlander, sufficiently less viable to be dropped.

 

[Meerkat]

Whilst this is true, the point is that some people do live locally, and therefore may well be tempted with a shorter time on the day train. And that it may only need a smallish proportion of people to do this to make the lowlander, or at least a full length lowlander, sufficiently less viable to be dropped.

Surely if its business travel they will get a taxi, and if they live outside of Edinburgh they will just drive to the airport and fly!

 

[Facing Back]

That is an edinburgh-birmingham service that got merged with a london-wolverhampton service. It's purpose is to connect edinburgh with stations along the WCML. It also only runs every 2 hours, vs 2-3 trains an hour over the ECML

And thats fair enough. But these days the service starts in Edinburgh and terminates in London, so to my mind it is a London Edinbugh service. It is an hour slower from Warrington to London than the service through Rugby but was popular still as it was often quite a lot cheaper on an advance ticket.

My question was due to a post about a thousand messages ago which stated that London Edinburgh trains "could not run" if the Golbourne link was not built and I was asked why not. I accept that the time penalty might mean than the ECML services are faster, but not that the "cannot" run without the link.

 

[35B]

The first current Avanti service to Euston leaves Glasgow Central at 0428, arriving 0914, a journey time of 4hrs 46mins if I get that right.

Get that down to 4hrs and the arrival is 0828. I think that would be fine for almost all business purposes. Sure, you might reach the office at 0915 instead of 0900 depending where it is but almost no office based business will care, as I've often said daily meetings and workshops tend to start at 1000 to give the host time to arrive at 0900 and prepare the room etc.

The first Edinburgh to Kings Cross is 0540 calling only at Newcastle taking a flat 4 hours, arriving at 0940, which is a bit late for an all day workshop session by the time you get to the City. I'm genuinely surprised there isn't an earlier one; if there was one at 0430-0445 ish I reckon that would make serious inroads into the Lowlander Edinburgh portion.

That assumes that travellers prefer to get up at silly o’clock to do that journey. Having tried various combinations of travel the night before, on the sleeper or first thing in the morning, the sleeper has a lot going for it. In both directions.

 

[JamieL]

That assumes that travellers prefer to get up at silly o’clock to do that journey. Having tried various combinations of travel the night before, on the sleeper or first thing in the morning, the sleeper has a lot going for it. In both directions.

I agree with this. There are many theorists, accountants and mathematicians that are minded to opine on the value of the Caledonian Sleeper - especially the Lowlander - but there is a real world element most overlook. The practical experience is that it offers a journey that is very time efficient for the busy business commuter, especially in these days of mixed home/site working. On the occasions I have used the Lowlander, many seem to agree.

 

[najaB]

The practical experience is that it offers a journey that is very time efficient for the busy business commuter, especially in these days of mixed home/site working. On the occasions I have used the Lowlander, many seem to agree.

I can't help but think that some posters' opinions on the viability/suitability of the Sleeper for business travel is coloured by their own experience of overnight travel: "I don't get any useful sleep, so why would anyone prefer it over an early morning flight?"

I've changed job and so almost never travel for work now, but if I was to find myself having to be down south on a regular basis I would take the train over a flight whenever the times worked.

And this is as someone who genuinely loves flying. The convenience of being able to walk to the train station in the evening, have a decent kip and wake up in London beats the experience of getting to EDI for 6am every time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't help but think that some posters' opinions on the viability/suitability of the Sleeper for business travel is coloured by their own experience of overnight travel: "I don't get any useful sleep, so why would anyone prefer it over an early morning flight?"

I've changed job and so almost never travel for work now, but if I was to find myself having to be down south on a regular basis I would take the train over a flight whenever the times worked.

And this is as someone who genuinely loves flying. The convenience of being able to walk to the train station in the evening, have a decent kip and wake up in London beats the experience of getting to EDI for 6am every time.

I guess it depends on the proportion of people who can sleep on one vs those who can't if a suitably timed day train was provided. That said, I guess most people who want a crack of dawn option already fly, as is my preference for that kind of trip.

 

[cb a1]

Did the Highlander down on Wednesday night and back up on Thursday night for an event in the Westminster area that was from 12:00 to 17:00.
Sleeper was great. Good night's sleep on way down. Did a couple of hours work in Euston Lounge then sauntered down through central London, met up with one of the people also going to the event at 11:30 and had a useful chat about other 'work' stuff.
Headed to the pub after the event for a good blether and a few beers. Standing room only in the pub on a Thursday!!
Victoria Line back up to Euston and probably fell asleep about 5 minutes after we left Euston.
In the past have flown but it misses out on all the non-official discussions and all the social connections.

 

[3rd rail land]

I think if were to need to travel again to my employer's office in Glasgow I would probably take the sleeper out and a flight back. In the past I have flown both ways as well as flown out and day trained it back. The idea was I could work on the train back home but the WiFi speed wasn't good enough for me to get anything meaningful done and I wish I had flown. A colleague even told me it was time to go to the airport and I had to remind him I was training it back home. Everyone thought I was mad not flying.

The logic behind sleeper out and flight back is I would arrive reasonably well rested in Glasgow and have time to have breakfast and trundle the just over 1 mile to the office for circa 08:30 vs leaving home around 05:20 for an early morning flight out of London City. After finishing work flying back would mean no hanging around waiting for the sleeper and would mean I have at least some of my evening back at home before needing to sleep again.

I tend to travel up to Glasgow at short notice, usually no more than a couple of weeks, and flight availability seems to be better than sleeper availability in such circumstances. Also I am not allowed to book 1st class train travel but presumably I would still be able to book a classic berth. In fact I am not sure my employer would know the difference between classic and club berths. Actually I am not even sure they have accounted for sleeper trains in their expenses policy!

In saying all that I travel to Glasgow on average once a year so this is mostly hypothetical. I now work 98% of the time from home.

 

[Essexman]

Being semi-retired I rarely use the sleeper for business now but used to take it several times a year for work meetings around Glasgow, plus less often to Edinburgh, Aberdeen & Inverness.
It gave me the advantage of being able to have my first meeting at 9.15 (often having taken a local train to the meeting), then either a second meeting early afternoon, or a day train home - but after a while I found it far more enjoyable to spend the rest of the day in Scotland and get the sleeper home. So after meetings in Glasgow I've travelled on to Fort William, Corrour, Bridge of Orchy, Pitlochry, Aberdeen & Inverness, travelling back on the sleeper from there.
So much better than flying, meeting & flying back.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think I would sum up the last hundred or so posts as: Choice of transport mode depends on exactly what the passenger has to do and how well they can sleep or get up early.

For me the sleeper would be my favoured method if I needed to travel (and someone else is paying). But then I can get to sleep easily and I hate getting up early. In the past I have been struck how many companies will not consider the sleeper option.

Now as far as the Caledonian SLeeper low lander goes I see it losing some business to HS2. Not a large proportion BUT maybe enough to impact the sleepers' viability. I would suggest that better awareness of the sleeper might get it filled back up. From my experience expenses travel seems to err towards minimum nights away and early morning departures on the first day - I saw this a lot with one week courses where many turned up delayed and frazzled (M25 even in the 1990s) on the first day. Then bored stiff in hotels with only a bar to keep one company for the rest of the week. I suggested to my HR that I would rather stay the Sunday night - they were not against it but dared not suggest it as it forced people to be away from home for longer. So there is the problem for the sleeper - decision/policy makers bend over backwards to make sure people can stay at home for as long as possible even if it mean a totally destroyed night or two of sleep !.

Contrast with my daughter in law who gets given an open return. Three days in London has been turned into two long weekends leisure and three days work n the middle !. Shame Cardiff is in the wrong country !.

 

[185143]

Did the Sleeper to Inverness last night.

Felt like I slept reasonably well, considering I was in the seats. Did have to adjust my rear end multiple times though! The TM had to give me a nudge 10 minutes out of Inverness to tell me such. Fell asleep leaving Crewe, woke up at Wigan. Fell asleep again and woke up at Carlisle, then the cycle repeated multiple times until Blair Atholl when I gave up. Nodded off briefly after Carrbridge.

The service was excellent. One of the lounge car staff came in at around 7AM, "Morning, anyone want breakfast?" Which was nice. We were all told by the TM on departure to buzz if we wanted anything, but was a nice offer. Never had that before.

Felt probably the most rested I've been on the new seats, but I did sleep from Aviemore to Stirling on the 170 South this afternoon!

 

[Leisurefirst]

Was looking into a Seat from Glasgow to London in August.
Came up sold out, which was surprising as they were still the cheapest rate when I last looked recently.
Tried other days (and indeed months) and every day says Seats sold out.
Any ideas as to why?
(They're obviously not all sold out).

 

[alistairlees]

Was looking into a Seat from Glasgow to London in August.
Came up sold out, which was surprising as they were still the cheapest rate when I last looked recently.
Tried other days (and indeed months) and every day says Seats sold out.
Any ideas as to why?
(They're obviously not all sold out).

There's a temporary issue just with the seats. Should be fixed later this week.

 

[Leisurefirst]

There's a temporary issue just with the seats. Should be fixed later this week.

Many thanks.