Caledonian Sleeper

[Bald Rick]

The benefits of the Lowlander are getting into London before 0800 in the morning. Will HS2 trains leave Glasgow Central before 0400 to offer the same service? I suspect not.

In any event, without Golborne I think its questionable with HS2 will offer much of a speed upgrade to Scottish customers.

I really don’t understand why some people think the Golborne link makes that much difference to journey times for passengers to Scotland. It’s about 7 minutes quicker than the existing line on a like for like basis.

and the benefit of the lowlander is not only about arriving London before 0800. It is also:

1) arriving London before 0900
2) arriving Glasgow / Edinburgh before 1030 / 1000 respectively
3) departing London after 1900 (Edinburgh) / 1930 (Glasgow)
4) departing Glasgow / Edinburgh after 1840 / 2000 respectively

HS2 will change all of these, which will cause some passengers to transfer to day trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don’t understand why some people think the Golborne link makes that much difference to journey times for passengers to Scotland. It’s about 7 minutes quicker than the existing line on a like for like basis.

Without Golborne there'll be no HS2 Edinburgh service. Though that said you can do a 4 hour journey time on the existing ECML with no upgrades (the 0540 does), so in the case of the ECML you just need an 0440 as well and it'd decimate the Edinburgh portion. I'm amazed Lumo haven't done it to be honest.

Though I must admit that if I'm getting up at the crack of dawn every minute of extra sleep does count!

 

[Facing Back]

Without Golborne there'll be no HS2 Edinburgh service. Though that said you can do a 4 hour journey time on the existing ECML with no upgrades (the 0540 does), so in the case of the ECML you just need an 0440 as well and it'd decimate the Edinburgh portion. I'm amazed Lumo haven't done it to be honest.

Though I must admit that if I'm getting up at the crack of dawn every minute of extra sleep does count!

Why no Edinburgh service without Golbourne?

 

[ShadowKnight]

Wasnt there some thoughts for internal Scotland sleeper services a few years ago?
If the lowlander is scrapped due to hs2 whoud that be a more viable proposition?

 

[najaB]

Wasnt there some thoughts for internal Scotland sleeper services a few years ago?

It's been proposed repeatedly, but the numbers just don't add up.

 

[jagardner1984]

It feels the point of the sleeper is being entirely missed. It isn’t the same as being in my own bed, of course, but I arrive well rested and can get on with my day.

To board it I take regular public transport into the city - go and board, get settled and wake up - usually on time or early, at the destination - I have usually 1-2 hours to sort myself out before being somewhere other than Euston to start my day.

And that it is really - yes Avanti have a 0428. But I would inevitably need a taxi to make that, seeing as I do not live in Glasgow Central, and overnight buses are scarce at best. The taxi is notoriously flaky at that time so I leave early. I wake up well in advance at between 0300-0330. On the rare occasions Avanti get me there on time, I arrive after 9am. I’ve then got to get somewhere that is not Euston to work / meet. It’s now 1030. By mid afternoon I’m seriously flagging from my 3am start. My sleep patterns are screwed for days afterwards.

I think the market of people to avoid the above is bigger than many on this forum give credit for. I am one of them, and it will take a lot more than a few minutes of HS2 shavings to convince me otherwise.

If anything, with loadings what they are, especially around Edinburgh in the summer, I am surprised Lumo do not seek to simply run a slow service at night (they could for example sell it at half capacity to avoid the “sleeping on a stranger’s shoulder” problem) to soak up some of the unmet demand.

 

[AlterEgo]

Insane for anyone to take the 0428 for four hours in the morning to get a “full day in London”. Nobody who respects their own health or sanity is going to do this. You’d need to be awake at 3am at best, unless you live on top of the station!

 

[railfan99]

Given the poor CAF ride, Wagon Wheels might be appropriate. (Do they still make these?)

in Australia, yes, so maybe import some:

https://www.woolworths.com.au/shop/productdetails/212875/arnott-s-wagon-wheels-chocolate-biscuits-original

 

[JamieL]

I really don’t understand why some people think the Golborne link makes that much difference to journey times for passengers to Scotland. It’s about 7 minutes quicker than the existing line on a like for like basis.

Because people understand how the WCML is currently operated. No Golborne link means the trains will stop at Warrington rather than bypass it. It will mean the trains run slower north of Crewe than the current 390s. There will be an additional stop at Old Oak Common. The engineering works will continue to be done with little thought about continuity of services (as per our Carstairs conversations). I suspect once all this has shaken out, the 30 minutes upgrade to journey times will prove to be optimistic and the real upgrade will be less. It is telling that the HS2 website, that once promised 4 hour journeys to Scotland, has now removed that comment and just says "faster journeys". As such, there is unlikely to be any significant difference between HS2 and current operations which means its impact on the Lowlander is likely to be negligible.

I would also pickup on your point that the Lowlander key advantage is "arriving London before 0900". No, it needs to arrive much earlier than that to cater for people who need to be in work at normal times.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wasnt there some thoughts for internal Scotland sleeper services a few years ago?

Not by anyone in the industry.

If the lowlander is scrapped due to hs2 whoud that be a more viable proposition?

Less viable, I’d say

I suspect once all this has shaken out, the 30 minutes upgrade to journey times will prove to be optimistic and the real upgrade will be less.

It will be more than 30 minutes.

I would also pickup on your point that the Lowlander key advantage is "arriving London before 0900". No, it needs to arrive much earlier than that to cater for people who need to be in work at normal times.

But *some* people won’t need to be in London until 0900, that’s the point. It’s not *just* about those who need to be in for 0800.

 

[JamieL]

But *some* people won’t need to be in London until 0900, that’s the point. It’s not *just* about those who need to be in for 080800.

Those people can and do use existing trains. For those in Scotland, I severely doubt HS2 is going to offer any meaningful time saving at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It feels the point of the sleeper is being entirely missed. It isn’t the same as being in my own bed, of course, but I arrive well rested and can get on with my day.

A lot of people don't, though. I certainly don't. I would come off better from 4 hours in my own bed than 8 on a train. And better still from 8 in a Premier Inn.

 

[BRX]

These discussions are always a bit pointless because different things work for different people.

I don't sleep very well on the sleeper - but I also generally get no sleep if I know I have to get up at 4am to go and get a train/plane.

Plus the weighing-up completely depends on the actual start and finish points of any journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==

That’s because “They” didn’t need to. In our loading gauge you can’t easily get many more couchettes in a coach than sleeper beds, and you sell the sleeper beds for more. So why fill the same amount of train with about the same number of people paying less?

Something like the Japanese "Nobi Nobi" arrangement would work. More passengers per carriage than conventional couchette and none of the awkwardness of sharing a cabin with strangers.

How do you run more beds on some nights?

You would run more beds at times of high demand; obviously you can't do it per night, it would be seasonal which is what already happens with some of the formation lengths being reduced in the winter.

The seats are less likely to sell out than the beds. Given that this means CS are much more likely to sell, per train, around 110 cabins at £200-£400 each than 62 seats at roughly a quarter of the price, tells you all you need to know about their relative popularity with the travelling public.

It doesn't really, because as I said the seats are not marketed and don't even appear as an option on many journey planners. And there seems to be little focus on making them as attractive as possible (the much discussed overly bright lighting, which could be sorted pretty easily with the will, being one example of this). Clearly Serco are not very bothered how many they sell because it's not where they make their money. If we were to look at maximising the social benefit of the sleeper, rather than just revenue, then a different approach would emerge.

 

[najaB]

A lot of people don't, though. I certainly don't. I would come off better from 4 hours in my own bed than 8 on a train. And better still from 8 in a Premier Inn.

Different strokes for different folk and all that, but I used to get a better rest on the Sleeper than I often did in my own bed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Different strokes for different folk and all that, but I used to get a better rest on the Sleeper than I often did in my own bed.

Yes, it does vary from person to person. My Dad can have a proper restful 8 hours in an economy class plane seat (and that even though he's terrified of flying), I'd be lucky if I got a 5 minute doze.

I think the question that is raised is that if there was a suitably early and quick ECML and WCML (HS2) day train departure (and suitably late ones to get back after a full day's work and a drink/meal afterwards, e.g. 2000 ish arriving around midnight) would a lot of people switch from the Sleeper?

 

[Techniquest]

I wouldn't use the sleeper in such a situation, absolutely not. HS2 and a hotel would 100% be my choice!

 

[paul1609]

Yes, it does vary from person to person. My Dad can have a proper restful 8 hours in an economy class plane seat (and that even though he's terrified of flying), I'd be lucky if I got a 5 minute doze.

I think the question that is raised is that if there was a suitably early and quick ECML and WCML (HS2) day train departure (and suitably late ones to get back after a full day's work and a drink/meal afterwards, e.g. 2000 ish arriving around midnight) would a lot of people switch from the Sleeper?

Too be honest with you as 95%+ of the CS passengers are tourists making one off or occasional journeys what's offered as an alternative day journey doesn't really matter that much. Most of the traffic that would be lost to other modes already has by changes such as cheaper flights, ECML + WCML electrification, WCML modernisation. A shorter journey by 30 mins on day trains just isn't going to have any effect.

 

[Trainbike46]

Why no Edinburgh service without Golbourne?

because it is not time-competitive with the ECML without golborne. I thought there would still be an Edinburgh-birmingham service

 

[Bletchleyite]

because it is not time-competitive with the ECML without golborne. I thought there would still be an Edinburgh-birmingham service

There will but I think it remains classic line without Golborne.

 

[BRX]

95%+ of the CS passengers are tourists making one off or occasional journeys

Is that a real figure or a guess/made up?

 

[alistairlees]

Is that a real figure or a guess/made up?

It's a guess (it's not correct)

 

[43096]

as I've often said daily meetings and workshops tend to start at 1000 to give the host time to arrive at 0900 and prepare the room etc.

Another of your sweeping generalisations that you think apply everywhere because you say so regularly. My experience is a 9am start.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

It's a guess (it's not correct)

and probably a wildly inaccurate guess!

 

[philthetube]

I would also pickup on your point that the Lowlander key advantage is "arriving London before 0900". No, it needs to arrive much earlier than that to cater for people who need to be in work at normal times.

any business wanting to have people travelling down from Scotland would not argue over an hour or so.

 

[xotGD]

The first current Avanti service to Euston leaves Glasgow Central at 0428

That's not a day train - it is a poorly timed overnight with no beds!

And anyone taking that train throughout will be in no fit state to do a day's work when they get to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not a day train - it is a poorly timed overnight with no beds!

And anyone taking that train throughout will be in no fit state to do a day's work when they get to London.

I can tell you, having done plenty of early business flights that have had me arriving at Luton Airport at 4:30-5am, I'd be in a better state than if I'd tried to sleep all night on the Sleeper.

 

[JamieL]

The first current Avanti service to Euston leaves Glasgow Central at 0428, arriving 0914, a journey time of 4hrs 46mins if I get that right.

What dates are you look at for this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What dates are you look at for this?

Any weekday. It's there today but was cancelled due to a shortage of train crew.

 

[JamieL]

Any weekday. It's there today but was cancelled due to a shortage of train crew.

Not shown on their March or April timetables? Maybe due to the Carstairs work. In any event, it still means getting to London 2.5hrs later than the sleeper, even assuming you can get to the station in the first instance. Absolutely no time for onward travel at London.

 

[paul1609]

It's a guess (it's not correct)

Would you like to enlighten us with your figures then?