Caledonian Sleeper

[CW2]

With Mark 3s the two rakes were identical, and rotated through all four destinations (Inverness, Edinburgh, Aberdeen/Fort William, Glasgow) in succession. The Edinburgh and Glasgow portions were swapped during the day at Polmadie so that the same rake was at the London end of the Lowlander in each direction. The electric leg of the Highlander ran with the Inverness portion leading in each direction.

The mark 5 rakes are not identical - the portion for Aberdeen and Fort William has to have cabins for disabled passengers for both destinations, and so half the rakes have two carriages with disabled accomodation whilst the others (which go to Inverness) have only one. Thus the rostering is now arranged so that there are two separate rosters, one covering Aberdeen/Fort William and Edinburgh, and the other Inverness and Glasgow. A consequence of this is that the Aberdeen/Fort William portion is now at the "London" end of the train in both directions.

A good clear explanation. Thanks.

 

[JonathanH]

A consequence of this is that the Aberdeen/Fort William portion is now at the "London" end of the train in both directions.

The Aberdeen/Fort William portion is on the North end coming south so it is in the right place to go to Glasgow the following day.

 

[JamieL]

The Aberdeen/Fort William portion is on the North end coming south so it is in the right place to go to Glasgow the following day.

I have to admit this has been my experience as well. When I get on at Helensburgh I normally find myself on the last coach on the train at Euston - a long walk to the ramp!

 

[Kite159]

I was worried this morning when the Inverness portion gained back some time after Carrbridge to be 36 minutes late to the working timetable but only 29 minutes late to the public timetable due to 7 minutes of padding. Thankfully it lost an extra few minutes getting looped at Moy for a southbound HST to push it over 30 minutes to the public timetable.

 

[Bill57p9]

With Mark 3s the two rakes were identical, and rotated through all four destinations (Inverness, Edinburgh, Aberdeen/Fort William, Glasgow) in succession. The Edinburgh and Glasgow portions were swapped during the day at Polmadie so that the same rake was at the London end of the Lowlander in each direction. The electric leg of the Highlander ran with the Inverness portion leading in each direction.

The mark 5 rakes are not identical - the portion for Aberdeen and Fort William has to have cabins for disabled passengers for both destinations, and so half the rakes have two carriages with disabled accomodation whilst the others (which go to Inverness) have only one. Thus the rostering is now arranged so that there are two separate rosters, one covering Aberdeen/Fort William and Edinburgh, and the other Inverness and Glasgow. A consequence of this is that the Aberdeen/Fort William portion is now at the "London" end of the train in both directions.

The Inverness portion is shared with Edinburgh, and Fort William + Aberdeen with Glasgow. As norbitonflyer explained, this is because coaches with accessible cabins are required on all portions - hence 2 for Fort William + Aberdeen. This reduces the overall capacity on this portion, which gets sent to Glasgow rather than Edinburgh as demand is less for Glasgow than the Scottish capital.

The Glasgow/Fort William + Aberdeen sets are always at the front on WCML because when the northbound Lowlander splits at Carstairs the front portion (logically) goes forward to Glasgow, however the southbound Lowlander combines at Carstairs as follows:

1. 1C11 from Edinburgh runs through Carstairs and stops in the down passing loop
2. 1M11 from Glasgow arrives at platform 2
3. 1C11 is propelled onto the rear of 1M11
4. 92 from 1C11 is removed from the rear of 1M11 and usually stables overnight at Carstairs to work 1B26, the morning Edinburgh portion.

This is unchanged from the mk3 days.

The southbound Highlander is usually assembled at Edinburgh as follows:

1. 1B16 from Aberdeen arrives in platform 2. Locos detach and run to Craigentinny
2. 1M16 from Inverness arrives in platform 19. Locos detach and run to Craigentinny
3. 1B01 from Fort William arrives in platform 1, then runs into Calton north tunnel before being propelled onto the east end of 1B16 in platform 2
4. 1B16+1B01 propelled into east end of 1M16. The ex-Fort William portion is split with the lounge and seated/brake coaches drawn back into Calton north tunnel before being propelled into a bay platform (usually 5)

One downside of the change from the mark 3 to mark 5 shunting chess is that northbound the Fort William lounge and seated coach/brake can't be shunted onto the portion until the Inverness portion has departed, reducing the scope for recovery from late running. (Bear in mind that once these Fort William coaches are added the locos then need to run round, made even more complex when a 66 is in play - as it usually is - as the 73/9 needs to be the coaching stock side of the pair at all times)

 

[Andy Pacer]

I was worried this morning when the Inverness portion gained back some time after Carrbridge to be 36 minutes late to the working timetable but only 29 minutes late to the public timetable due to 7 minutes of padding. Thankfully it lost an extra few minutes getting looped at Moy for a southbound HST to push it over 30 minutes to the public timetable.

Why would this cause you to be worried?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Why would this cause you to be worried?

I think he's after the delay repay money?

 

[Andy Pacer]

I think he's after the delay repay money?

Oh yes, good spot.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Speaking of delay repay, I was looking forward to a chunk of money back until I discovered that the timetable had been amended to allow nearly an hour & a half to get from Spean Bridge to Fort William. Supposedly a weather related change.

 

[jagardner1984]

The Inverness portion is shared with Edinburgh, and Fort William + Aberdeen with Glasgow. As norbitonflyer explained, this is because coaches with accessible cabins are required on all portions - hence 2 for Fort William + Aberdeen. This reduces the overall capacity on this portion, which gets sent to Glasgow rather than Edinburgh as demand is less for Glasgow than the Scottish capital.

The Glasgow/Fort William + Aberdeen sets are always at the front on WCML because when the northbound Lowlander splits at Carstairs the front portion (logically) goes forward to Glasgow, however the southbound Lowlander combines at Carstairs as follows:

1. 1C11 from Edinburgh runs through Carstairs and stops in the down passing loop
2. 1M11 from Glasgow arrives at platform 2
3. 1C11 is propelled onto the rear of 1M11
4. 92 from 1C11 is removed from the rear of 1M11 and usually stables overnight at Carstairs to work 1B26, the morning Edinburgh portion.

This is unchanged from the mk3 days.

The southbound Highlander is usually assembled at Edinburgh as follows:

1. 1B16 from Aberdeen arrives in platform 2. Locos detach and run to Craigentinny
2. 1M16 from Inverness arrives in platform 19. Locos detach and run to Craigentinny
3. 1B01 from Fort William arrives in platform 1, then runs into Calton north tunnel before being propelled onto the east end of 1B16 in platform 2
4. 1B16+1B01 propelled into east end of 1M16. The ex-Fort William portion is split with the lounge and seated/brake coaches drawn back into Calton north tunnel before being propelled into a bay platform (usually 5)

One downside of the change from the mark 3 to mark 5 shunting chess is that northbound the Fort William lounge and seated coach/brake can't be shunted onto the portion until the Inverness portion has departed, reducing the scope for recovery from late running. (Bear in mind that once these Fort William coaches are added the locos then need to run round, made even more complex when a 66 is in play - as it usually is - as the 73/9 needs to be the coaching stock side of the pair at all times)

Very interesting info - asking because I don't know - how does this sort of complex arrangement work from a control / signalling perspective ? Presumably there is a shunter employed at both Waverley and Carstairs overnight ? Once the full train arrives in each location does the shunter and drivers (presumably with radios etc) work through a series of steps according to a plan, or does Control have to instruct each step of the plan ?

I notice yesterday morning, the Northbound Highlander arrived 04:19, with Aberdeen departing 0437, Inverness departing 04:56, and Fort William 05:27. Are those timings of just over an hour roughly normal ? The previous night the Inverness seems to have left before the Aberdeen by a couple of minutes ...

 

[pitdiver]

A quick observation,when my wife and I travelled to Fort William on the MK 3s our coach was right at the front of the train when leaving Euston.

 

[JonathanH]

A quick observation,when my wife and I travelled to Fort William on the MK 3s I coach was right at the front of the train when leaving Euston.

Yes, that was the case up to October 2019, when the Mark 3s finished and the Mark 5s took over. Since that time, the Fort William portion has been in the middle going north.

 

[Bill57p9]

Very interesting info - asking because I don't know - how does this sort of complex arrangement work from a control / signalling perspective ? Presumably there is a shunter employed at both Waverley and Carstairs overnight ? Once the full train arrives in each location does the shunter and drivers (presumably with radios etc) work through a series of steps according to a plan, or does Control have to instruct each step of the plan ?

I don't have any inside information: I have simply watched the choreography on Traksy when I have been unable to sleep!!
There certainly used to be a shunter employed overnight at Carstairs and Edinburgh - it was the shunter that caught the air brake isolation valve on the Edinburgh portion that lead to the runaway in the early days of the Mk5s.
I would expect this to still be the case, not only to provide hand signals to aid the driver but also to deal with raising and dropping the Dellner coupler on the 73/9s.

I would be stunned if there isn't a pre-defined plan - including a "plan B" for ECML diversions - that all involved follow rather than dealing with control, unless disruption throws this out of the window.

I notice yesterday morning, the Northbound Highlander arrived 04:19, with Aberdeen departing 0437, Inverness departing 04:56, and Fort William 05:27. Are those timings of just over an hour roughly normal ? The previous night the Inverness seems to have left before the Aberdeen by a couple of minutes ...

Northbound the Inverness portion is scheduled to leave Edinburgh (from platform 2, crossing over to platform 20) before the Aberdeen portion from platform 19, however this isn't essential.

 

[scotraildriver]

There is a shunter at Edinburgh and Carstairs and they are in charge of everything. They control the movements using handsignals and radio, no one else has anything to do with it. (Apart from the guard dealing with doors). Everyone knows exactly what they're doing, the Edinburgh shunts involve a full week of training for each driver. The signallers watch the movements using the station CCTV so they can clear signals as appropriate to allow the movements without the shunter constantly having to call them. I did it for many years and it's a very well oiled machine.

 

[Kite159]

I think he's after the delay repay money?

Yep. Every little helps as they say

 

[jagardner1984]

There is a shunter at Edinburgh and Carstairs and they are in charge of everything. They control the movements using handsignals and radio, no one else has anything to do with it. (Apart from the guard dealing with doors). Everyone knows exactly what they're doing, the Edinburgh shunts involve a full week of training for each driver. The signallers watch the movements using the station CCTV so they can clear signals as appropriate to allow the movements without the shunter constantly having to call them. I did it for many years and it's a very well oiled machine.

Thank you for the info, it's such a unique operation these days, this is all really interesting.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Aberdeen/Fort William portion is on the North end coming south so it is in the right place to go to Glasgow the following day.

my mistake, now corrected. This means the two rakes are no longer swapped at Polmadie (In Mark 3 days the one that went to Edinburgh returned from Glasgow and vice versa)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2023 ==

The Aberdeen/Fort William portion is on the North end coming south so it is in the right place to go to Glasgow the following day.

My error, now correc8ted. The reversal at Edinburgh (where it is at the east end!) confused me.

 

[BRX]

One downside of the change from the mark 3 to mark 5 shunting chess is that northbound the Fort William lounge and seated coach/brake can't be shunted onto the portion until the Inverness portion has departed,

Why's this - doesn't the scissors arrangement at Waverley mean you can shunt them on whether or not the Inverness portion is still there (presumably it's in platform 2?)

 

[Bill57p9]

Why's this - doesn't the scissors arrangement at Waverley mean you can shunt them on whether or not the Inverness portion is still there (presumably it's in platform 2?)

The scissors would theoretically allow them to be coupled, however it wouldn't fit in platform 19 - which also still has the Aberdeen portion (including 1 or 2 locos) at this stage. The lounge & seated coach would then be sat across the scissors, so the doors couldn't be opened safely and the Inverness portion would be trapped.

 

[BRX]

The scissors would theoretically allow them to be coupled, however it wouldn't fit in platform 19 - which also still has the Aberdeen portion (including 1 or 2 locos) at this stage. The lounge & seated coach would then be sat across the scissors, so the doors couldn't be opened safely and the Inverness portion would be trapped.

Ah right. Those platforms seem so huge I'd assumed 2 locos + 10 mk5s would fit in them quite comfortably.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2023 ==

On the southbound highlander - does the guard that works the train south from Edinburgh come off one of the highland portions, or do they start work from Edinburgh?

 

[Siemens Trains]

Ah right. Those platforms seem so huge I'd assumed 2 locos + 10 mk5s would fit in them quite comfortably

I think platforms 2 and 19 are each only about 280 metres long.
But obviously when you see both of them together the combination is over 0.5 km - assuming the ends are visible through Auld Reekie's haar and smog.

 

[Bill57p9]

Indeed. Also, especially in Autumn, it can be 4 locos. Though I would hope that a 73/9 could do the shunt alone, however that would still leave 3.

 

[BRX]

On the southbound highlander - does the guard that works the train south from Edinburgh come off one of the highland portions, or do they start work from Edinburgh?

Does anyone know the answer to this?

 

[185143]

Does anyone know the answer to this?

I'd expect them to start work at Edinburgh given the length of journeys involved. Or failing that, the ex Aberdeen TM given that's the shortest one.

I was told that on the Fort William leg, one TM usually works Dalmuir-Edinburgh-Dalmuir, another passes to Fort William to work back to Dalmuir and another works it in the morning to Fort William and passes back. Pretty sure for Aberdeen/Inverness they usually pass one direction and work the entirety North of Edinburgh for the other.

 

[NORTHERNSOUL]

Does anybody know why there are no sleeper services for a week at the start of May ?

 

[D6130]

Does anybody know why there are no sleeper services for a week at the start of May ?

Isn't it to do with the Carstairs remodelling blockade? I thought the sleepers were going to be diverted via the ECML and Edinburgh.

 

[JonathanH]

Does anybody know why there are no sleeper services for a week at the start of May ?

Isn't it to do with the Carstairs remodelling blockade? I thought the sleepers were going to be diverted via the ECML and Edinburgh.

Bank Holidays around that time and the uncertainty of travel arrangements connected to the Coronation I would imagine.

 

[Lee_Again]

Bank Holidays around that time and the uncertainty of travel arrangements connected to the Coronation I would imagine.

What dates and services? Tickets to Fort William are available on early May dates.

 

[paul1609]

Have the Scottish Government found an operator for the service yet?

 

[CJSwan]

Have the Scottish Government found an operator for the service yet?

I do wonder if they’ll bring it back into ScotRail… But that’s just my own wondering, haven’t heard anything official yet.