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Caledonian Sleeper

Peter Sarf

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Until the early 90s Inverness used to have two services in each direction. Times varied a bit over the years but in 1989 they were 1S25 21:20 from Euston (07:50 arr.), 1S07 22:15 from Euston (09:25 arr.) and 1M15 20:35 to Euston and 1M16 21:15 to Euston. Both loaded up to 8 sleeping cars depending on season, plus seated accomodation, a BG for luggage and motorail vans. They also ran on Saturday nights.

How many spare coach sets does CS have? Would it be possible to run an extra Inverness service without cutting one of the other trains?
Unfortunately not awash with spares. There is effectively one 8 coach rake as a maintenance spare so if maintenance could be magically ignored you would only have enough for half of 8 coaches in each direction. Rather a waste of locomotives and staff if you were to run only a 25% length train. Coaches are a new enough design for extras to be ordered but I fear the economics will not hold up.
 
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RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

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Unfortunately not awash with spares. There is effectively one 8 coach rake as a maintenance spare so if maintenance could be magically ignored you would only have enough for half of 8 coaches in each direction. Rather a waste of locomotives and staff if you were to run only a 25% length train. Coaches are a new enough design for extras to be ordered but I fear the economics will not hold up.

I still think the Aberdeen may be on borrowed time due to high demand to FW and Inverness. Binning it could allow one more coach to each of Inverness and FW, and no seated coach shuffle - or keep the shuffle and make the split Oban and FW.
 

Peter Sarf

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I still think the Aberdeen may be on borrowed time due to high demand to FW and Inverness. Binning it could allow one more coach to each of Inverness and FW, and no seated coach shuffle - or keep the shuffle and make the split Oban and FW.
Indeed. Question will be is the seasonal worth of an extra Inverness higher than the Aberdeens regular (if any ?) carryings.
 

lachlan

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11 Aug 2019
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I only hope they get the chance to introduce some of these new ideas before SNP rail takes over in June and ruins it beyond fixing point
I don't think it could get much worse. I hold out hope that it will improve once Serco are no longer involved. Hoping the Aberdeen leg doesn't go.

Based on the two times I used it and we has to take a normal train to Edinburgh and board there, there were quite a few people using the service.
 

JamieL

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I only hope they get the chance to introduce some of these new ideas before SNP rail takes over in June and ruins it beyond fixing point
Is there such a thing as "SNP rail"? If we are classifying TOCs by the ruling party, then does this make Avanti "Conservatives Rail"? Framed in such a way, I would take the former each and every time given the ScotRail services I use normally run on time and get to the destination!
 

Iskra

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Surely in the long term, HS2 will make the Lowlander irrelevant, so it would make more sense to abolish that service and run an ECML service to Inverness and Aberdeen via Newcastle, York and Edinburgh with the current Lowlander stock, with the current Highlander serving Glasgow and Fort William. That would mean no stations lose their service, but extra passenger potential is gained via the ECML and extra capacity to Inverness provided.
 

ScotsRail

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Aberfeldy
If it is headed to Oban - splitting from/ joining the FW service at Crianlarich or seperate all the way to/from Edinburgh?

Like the idea of having a sleeper service to/from Wick it sounds like a nice idea but I certainly wonder what the actual financial reality would be.
 

JamieL

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Surely in the long term, HS2 will make the Lowlander irrelevant, so it would make more sense to abolish that service and run an ECML service to Inverness and Aberdeen via Newcastle, York and Edinburgh with the current Lowlander stock, with the current Highlander serving Glasgow and Fort William. That would mean no stations lose their service, but extra passenger potential is gained via the ECML and extra capacity to Inverness provided.
Why do you say this? Does HS2 actually have a planned link to the WCML now the Golborne link has been cancelled? With HS2 stock being non-tilting, will the trains be faster or slower than the current 390s once they leave the HS2 track? Will journey times to Scotland actually improve at all?

Also, merging the Highlander and Lowlander on the WCML would mean arrival in Glasgow around 0530 in order to keep the Fort William arrival times as is. That is quite early to disembark!
 
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Bletchleyite

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If it is headed to Oban - splitting from/ joining the FW service at Crianlarich or seperate all the way to/from Edinburgh?

Like the idea of having a sleeper service to/from Wick it sounds like a nice idea but I certainly wonder what the actual financial reality would be.

One thing they could do is look at demand through the year and have it run to the busiest of the two at that time, with a ScotRail service behind it from Crianlarich to the other one. That's a lot less faff than changing coaches at 4am in Edinburgh and lower risk than faffing about with the formation at Crianlarich.
 

BRX

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Often mentioned on here, but the idea of extending the Aberdeen portion to Inverness has always seemed a reasonable one to me. More capacity & two departures from inverness, and you pick up all those places between.

Surely running Saturday nights is an easy win though, at least in the summer. Or does it mess up maintenance schedules?
 

Falcon1200

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Often mentioned on here, but the idea of extending the Aberdeen portion to Inverness has always seemed a reasonable one to me. More capacity & two departures from inverness, and you pick up all those places between.

It is an interesting idea, but does the Aberdeen portion really run with enough spare beds/seats to provide the additional capacity desired from Inverness?
 

AVK17

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Surely running Saturday nights is an easy win though, at least in the summer. Or does it mess up maintenance schedules?
Quite simply, yes. Saturday night into Sunday morning is the only time the WCML between Carlisle and Carstairs, and the Cobbinshaw line between Carstairs and Haymarket is available for line blockages/possessions/isolations of more than a couple of hours. It’s not insurmountable if the will is there but possible solutions may not be acceptable to either the operator (diversion via G&SW or ECML) or Network Rail (Single Line Working).
 

JonathanH

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Inverness via Aberdeen and Wick are both non starters really because of the single line issues. Better to just have good reliable connections at Aberdeen and Inverness into day trains.
 

Trainbike46

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Quite simply, yes. Saturday night into Sunday morning is the only time the WCML between Carlisle and Carstairs, and the Cobbinshaw line between Carstairs and Haymarket is available for line blockages/possessions/isolations of more than a couple of hours. It’s not insurmountable if the will is there but possible solutions may not be acceptable to either the operator (diversion via G&SW or ECML) or Network Rail (Single Line Working).
why wouldn't running via the ECML or G&SW be acceptable?
 

BRX

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Quite simply, yes. Saturday night into Sunday morning is the only time the WCML between Carlisle and Carstairs, and the Cobbinshaw line between Carstairs and Haymarket is available for line blockages/possessions/isolations of more than a couple of hours. It’s not insurmountable if the will is there but possible solutions may not be acceptable to either the operator (diversion via G&SW or ECML) or Network Rail (Single Line Working).
Is it this that originally drove the arrangement of having no sleepers on a Saturday night, or was it to do with demand, perhaps in times when it was more business travel oriented?
 

williamn

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Is the Aberdeen service only running on Fridays in January? That’s all I can find on the website.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Often mentioned on here, but the idea of extending the Aberdeen portion to Inverness has always seemed a reasonable one to me. More capacity & two departures from inverness, and you pick up all those places between.
Not attractive for Inverness due to much longer journey time but could transfer pass for Elgin Forres and Nairn off the Inverness - not sure how many there are for these stations as Inverness itself will surely be the main market on that train.

Could run a combined Inverness and Fort William (sleeping car split 8/4 (or seasonally 9/3 or even 10/2) although that doesn't meet full aspiration for additional Inverness capacity) and serve Aberdeen with a portion off the Lowlander (4 Glasgow / 8 Edinburgh with 2 or 3 of the Edinburgh portion forward to Aberdeen - a much later arrival in Aberdeen but much better timings for stations in Fife and Tayside.
 

JonathanH

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serve Aberdeen with a portion off the Lowlander (4 Glasgow / 8 Edinburgh with 2 or 3 of the Edinburgh portion forward to Aberdeen - a much later arrival in Aberdeen but much better timings for stations in Fife and Tayside.
Problem is that by the time the Lowlander is in Edinburgh, it is mixing in with the daytime service. Southbound it might be more practical.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Until the early 90s Inverness used to have two services in each direction. Times varied a bit over the years but in 1989 they were 1S25 21:20 from Euston (07:50 arr.), 1S07 22:15 from Euston (09:25 arr.) and 1M15 20:35 to Euston and 1M16 21:15 to Euston. Both loaded up to 8 sleeping cars depending on season, plus seated accomodation, a BG for luggage and motorail vans. They also ran on Saturday nights.
Until circa 1980 Inverness only had one train - mixed seats and sleepers, with a second train (also seats and sleepers) northbound Friday nights and southbound Sunday nights
If it is headed to Oban - splitting from/ joining the FW service at Crianlarich or seperate all the way to/from Edinburgh?
Operationally it would have to be split in Edinburgh - Crianlarich is fine for Sprinters but unless running with a loco in the middle of the train a no go for loco hauled split/and particularly join plus the full train would be overlength for loops and platforms. Times have changed since the Up FW ran load 11 or 12 on Summer Sat evenings!
 

Essexman

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16 coaches is the maximum that will fit into the platforms at Euston.

An Oban service would be excellent.

Sleepers not so busy in the winter. Email from CS today saying 25 percent off tickets in January & February. But not in combination with railcard discounts. And no advantage to those using Flexipass.
 

AberdeenBill

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21 Feb 2021
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Poole
Is the Aberdeen service only running on Fridays in January? That’s all I can find on the website.
I have been trying to book Thursday 29 Dec or Wed 28 Dec for about 6 weeks now. The website shows 'no service' (although the Friday is bookable). I rang up CS and messaged on Twitter. The response was the same - Network Rail are updating the timetable and you should keep checking. They could not even book me over the phone as they said they can only use the same method i would be using by booking online and it is not showing. Also mentioned something about Fridays being different when NR update timetable. All sounds a bit fishy to me and with Xmas approaching i want to get it booked soon so may just pick an alternative method which i dont want to do.
 

alxndr

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Last nights Lowlander from London to Glasgow left the big smoke just under 15 late, ended up 40 early by Preston, left on time and got to Glasgow well over an hour early. It was my first time using seated and I can confirm the lights were blinding throughout the journey, however, the temperature was lovely and warm and the seats were very comfortable for a tall guy. It was nice to also have a driver who didn't use ridiculous braking and acceleration techniques. I did note the boards at Euston showed the train as going to Glasgow Central & Carstairs which definitely lead to some confusion of people bound for the Capital
Just seen this, I'd have been in the same carriage that night. Also my first experience of seated/the sleeper and can agree that it was an agreeable temperature. The person next to me did put their coat over their lap, so perhaps they prefer it a bit warmer than it was, but better too cool than too warm in my opinion. The seats weren't quite so comfortable for a short guy as although the headrests are very clever in giving you somewhere to properly rest your head, I'm slightly to short to reach them if I "recline" the seat all the way. I'd have probably preferred a seat that was close enough to the window to lean on it, but I'd been up since 02.30 the previous morning to get down to London, so by that time I didn't really care.
 

Speed43125

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20 Jul 2019
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Dunblane
Will there be enough class 73/9 locos for these projected additional services, let alone stock?
67s could be used with no time penalty for Aberdeen and Inverness, for Fort William you'd have to go back to the speed restrictions over various bridges.
 

JamieL

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6 Aug 2022
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Yes, by at least half an hour, potentially more.
These were the time savings announced in Parliament before the scrapping of Golborne. The current assessment is, by connecting to the WCML near Crewe, HS2 will slow journey times to Scotland:
 

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