Caledonian Sleeper

[Peter Sarf]

The tricky thing here is volume of customers perhaps. This is a fairly small hotel in terms of number of guests. Therefore the likely hood is that each member of staff would have more than one duty to do. If the operation was bigger then each member of staff might have a narrower job definition. OK they might rotate duties from night to night and provide occasional cover.

BUT now add in the complexity that this is a moving hotel and all of a sudden there are railway related responsibilities that HAVE to be fulfilled. I wonder if those doing the recruiting really understand the difference between an operation on a moving train and that in a building. Having said that I am no expert in either but I get that there are big differences.

Question - for the maximum number of guests on a sleeper train how many more staff are required than if it were (just) a hotel ?.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I've had to cancel this weekend's trip to London as my wife tested positive yesterday. Spent the rest of the day aborting my trip south and returning north to Aberdeenshire. So I've checked on their website and Caledonian Sleeper make me chuckle. Covid page says If you or anyone in your household are suffering from cold or flu like symptoms, stay at home and do not travel with Caledonian Sleeper. If you cannot travel, please contact our Guest Service Centre to apply for a refund before noon on the day of travel.

OK, I'll do that then. Dials the number. What time does their Guest Service Centre open on a Sunday? Noon! So I can't call them before their deadline for a refund that I don't think they will give me on my ticket type. Perhaps a complaint to be raised against their website then when they say no...

 

[6Z09]

On a train with few stops and few passengers I dont really see that those two roles cant be the same person. Having a 'train manager' managing the staff on said train doesn't seem a huge ask - how many staff are they and do they really need much supervision?
Or am I forgetting that the railway isnt the real world again?

Railway isn't the real world? Really?
If you have travelled on the new coaches, you have surely heard a fairly constant stream of alarms sound throughout the journey, someone, probably the Train Manager, has to deal with these! Do you really think that "Guests " should have to wait for there coffee whilst other duties are being attended to.
To compare a train to a hotel is downright stupid, and indeed that's why expectation is seldom realised on the Caledonian Sleeper.
It's perhaps the marketing blurb that's not in the real world!

 

[Meerkat]

Railway isn't the real world? Really?
If you have travelled on the new coaches, you have surely heard a fairly constant stream of alarms sound throughout the journey, someone, probably the Train Manager, has to deal with these! Do you really think that "Guests " should have to wait for there coffee whilst other duties are being attended to.
To compare a train to a hotel is downright stupid, and indeed that's why expectation is seldom realised on the Caledonian Sleeper.
It's perhaps the marketing blurb that's not in the real world!

The railway doesnt seem to act like the real world.
Does the ad actually say the TM would be handing out the coffee or overseeing it/extra pair of hands?
In a real small hotel that manager that is getting stuck in helping out whilst managing the staff would also probably be doing the booking, procurement, and a lot of the financials, so I dont think checking some tickets and dealing with the occasional station stop is really all that demanding, especially as the guests will be asleep for a decent chunk of the shift

 

[Peter Sarf]

Railway isn't the real world? Really?
If you have travelled on the new coaches, you have surely heard a fairly constant stream of alarms sound throughout the journey, someone, probably the Train Manager, has to deal with these! Do you really think that "Guests " should have to wait for there coffee whilst other duties are being attended to.
To compare a train to a hotel is downright stupid, and indeed that's why expectation is seldom realised on the Caledonian Sleeper.
It's perhaps the marketing blurb that's not in the real world!

I wonder if the people who decided how the Caledonian Sleeper operation would be run are from a Hotel background ?.

 

[6Z09]

I wonder if the people who decided how the Caledonian Sleeper operation would be run are from a Hotel background ?.

Unlikely, I'm sure they all have a really strong rail industry background.
To have hoteliers running a rail operation would surely be a recipe for chaos? The hospitality industry doesn't have much in the way of a Unionised workforce, doesn't have great industrial relations , relies on a compliant workforce, low wages and a fire and hire culture!

 

[StephenHunter]

I wonder if the people who decided how the Caledonian Sleeper operation would be run are from a Hotel background ?.

The people who run the Nightjet operation i.e. provide the staff are from a catering background. Newrest Wagons-Lits are part of the Newrest Group and are the successor to CIWL.

 

[Dr Hoo]

If you have travelled on the new coaches, you have surely heard a fairly constant stream of alarms sound throughout the journey, someone, probably the Train Manager, has to deal with these! Do you really think that "Guests " should have to wait for there coffee whilst other duties are being attended to.

I am interested in this comment, which has been touched on before (in the context of people in accommodation next to the 'alarm panels' not being able to get much sleep).

I had put this down to 'false alarms' when the stock was brand new (e.g. debris in smoke detectors or something) but is it still an ongoing issue? Does the Train Manager literally have to spend all night frantically walking backwards and forwards through 16 coaches dealing with 'emergencies'?

(I am still sufficiently deterred by this thread to not even consider using the current operation/new coaches yet.)

 

[Stathern Jc]

(I am still sufficiently deterred by this thread to not even consider using the current operation/new coaches yet.)

You're certainly not the only one.
The interrupted level of service, and the unfortunate frequency of significant delays when it does run, are enough to give many potential customers reservations about taking the sleeper without having read the dissatisfaction expressed here.

I no longer need to make long journeys, but wouldn't have the confidence to link other travel / accommodation arrangements to travel on the sleeper as things are just now.

 

[XAM2175]

If you have travelled on the new coaches, you have surely heard a fairly constant stream of alarms sound throughout the journey, someone, probably the Train Manager, has to deal with these!

I am interested in this comment, which has been touched on before (in the context of people in accommodation next to the 'alarm panels' not being able to get much sleep).

I certainly heard no such thing when I travelled from Inverness to London at the end of August - or is this something that only happens to people who would be grateful to be given reason to criticise the service?

 

[Bald Rick]

I certainly heard no such thing when I travelled from Inverness to London at the end of August - or is this something that only happens to people who would be grateful to be given reason to criticise the service?

Same here when I’ve used it. No alarms that I was aware of.

 

[Caleb2010]

I’ve done 3 or 4 trips on the new stock and never had an alarm go off that I’ve heard! In fact apart from the last journey - right through the middle of storm Arwen it’s been a much more pleasant experience than the mk3s

 

[Berliner]

The railway doesnt seem to act like the real world.
Does the ad actually say the TM would be handing out the coffee or overseeing it/extra pair of hands?
In a real small hotel that manager that is getting stuck in helping out whilst managing the staff would also probably be doing the booking, procurement, and a lot of the financials, so I dont think checking some tickets and dealing with the occasional station stop is really all that demanding, especially as the guests will be asleep for a decent chunk of the shift

It's not a case of the railway not being part of the real world. A guard/TM is a Safety critical role on the railway and one which carries a lot of responsibility. There is a lot more to it than just opening doors and checking tickets.

 

[Meerkat]

It's not a case of the railway not being part of the real world. A guard/TM is a Safety critical role on the railway and one which carries a lot of responsibility. There is a lot more to it than just opening doors and checking tickets.

That responsibility isnt actually much work unless something goes wrong though is it? Bit like air steward(esse)s - big responsibility on landing and takeoff and when things go wrong, but otherwise plenty of time to hand out the food and drinks

 

[StephenHunter]

That's still plenty of work.

 

[Berliner]

That responsibility isnt actually much work unless something goes wrong though is it? Bit like air steward(esse)s - big responsibility on landing and takeoff and when things go wrong, but otherwise plenty of time to hand out the food and drinks

The idea is someone is ready to act promptly when needed, not being involved in something else.

Anyway you seem dismissive of anything anyone has said, so I won't bother.

 

[Meerkat]

That's still plenty of work.

As a percentage of a lengthy journey, of which a large proportion of the time the customers are asleep?

The idea is someone is ready to act promptly when needed, not being involved in something else.

If they are hosting then they are probably already in a better place to deal with the customers when something goes wrong!

Anyway you seem dismissive of anything anyone has said, so I won't bother.

I wont be dismissive of a convincing argument, rather than just "the railway doesnt do things like that because we dont like change and the unions refuse it"

 

[6Z09]

As a percentage of a lengthy journey, of which a large proportion of the time the customers are asleep?

If they are hosting then they are probably already in a better place to deal with the customers when something goes wrong!

I wont be dismissive of a convincing argument, rather than just "the railway doesnt do things like that because we dont like change and the unions refuse it"

The Union don't refuse!
The members refuse, it seems its very hard for you to understand this!

 

[LowLevel]

The idea is someone is ready to act promptly when needed, not being involved in something else.

Anyway you seem dismissive of anything anyone has said, so I won't bother.

To be fair, train managers on many Intercity TOCs help with the catering service. On my own one they can often be found serving drinks or washing up at busy times.

If however they're suggesting running with fewer of the hosts required for a sleeping car service using the train manager in lieu of one or more of them, rather than just helping out with the general service when it's busy, then that I can understand.

The Union don't refuse!
The members refuse, it seems very hard for you to understand this!

The members however are often very heavily lead by the union. At my own branch of 200 odd members, about 10 usually bother to turn up to meetings, generally the ones with an agenda, and on their say so some pretty big decisions are taken.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.......

If they are hosting then they are probably already in a better place to deal with the customers when something goes wrong!

........

Thing is, if something goes wrong, it is quite likely that the safety critical staff need to be nowhere near the customers and getting on with sorting the problem. It is not just about dealing with customers and keeping them up to date. It is about carrying out actions - they might have to protect the train for instance. This is a "hotel" that moves and can collide with other moving objects.

To be fair, train managers on many Intercity TOCs help with the catering service. On my own one they can often be found serving drinks or washing up at busy times.

If however they're suggesting running with fewer of the hosts required for a sleeping car service using the train manager in lieu of one or more of them, rather than just helping out with the general service when it's busy, then that I can understand.

The members however are often very heavily lead by the union. At my own branch of 200 odd members, about 10 usually bother to turn up to meetings, generally the ones with an agenda, and on their say so some pretty big decisions are taken.

That reminds me. People really need to take an interest in things rather than complaining when they do not like the results. More union members should get involved. It is the same as complaining about the government but never voting.

 

[6Z09]

To be fair, train managers on many Intercity TOCs help with the catering service. On my own one they can often be found serving drinks or washing up at busy times.

If however they're suggesting running with fewer of the hosts required for a sleeping car service using the train manager in lieu of one or more of them, rather than just helping out with the general service when it's busy, then that I can understand.

The members however are often very heavily lead by the union. At my own branch of 200 odd members, about 10 usually bother to turn up to meetings, generally the ones with an agenda, and on their say so some pretty big decisions are taken.

All decisions are subject to a referendum or ballot, and the members are without any doubt calling the tune.

 

[StephenHunter]

As a percentage of a lengthy journey, of which a large proportion of the time the customers are asleep?

You never know when a passenger might need something.

 

[sd0733]

We had a trip on the sleeper last night, first time in the new coaches and my partners first ever trip on the sleeper. Was a little nervous after reading this thread but apart from being moved cabins and having to cart everything through 3 coaches to the replacement the rest of the trip was pretty good. The food was nice, the staff friendly and the cabin comfortable and very quiet. My partner loved it and she slept like a log. Maybe we were lucky but it seems more of the horror stories are reported than when it does go ok.

 

[Meerkat]

The Union don't refuse!
The members refuse, it seems its very hard for you to understand this!

Its basically the same thing in an aggressively unionised industry. In most industries job roles change all the time, the staff adapt (generally grumbling due to change aversion and then getting used to it) or find better jobs elsewhere. On the railway the staff can decide they don't want to change even if that slowly kills off their industry and denies those jobs to future generations.
I totally accept that in safety critical and customer facing roles staff absolutely need the protection of unions, but that should be where their focus is, not demanding that the staff have a veto on progress.
So if the merging of roles really meant the TM is too rushed to do the safety roles properly then that is an issue the union should be all over. If that isnt the case and its just a demarcation dispute then I'm sadly shaking my head at the damage being done.

 

[StephenHunter]

We had a trip on the sleeper last night, first time in the new coaches and my partners first ever trip on the sleeper. Was a little nervous after reading this thread but apart from being moved cabins and having to cart everything through 3 coaches to the replacement the rest of the trip was pretty good. The food was nice, the staff friendly and the cabin comfortable and very quiet. My partner loved it and she slept like a log. Maybe we were lucky but it seems more of the horror stories are reported than when it does go ok.

The Highland views of a morning make up for many of the faults.

 

[sd0733]

The Highland views of a morning make up for many of the faults.

Not too much to see at this time of year though, pitch black almost right to Inverness!

 

[Maxfly]

Sorry, but most of the above is uninformed wibble. 66 to 67 conversion = 2 days. Refresher = 1 day. Changing brake blocks one type to another isn't a 'modification', and where do you suppose the FW drivers came from at GBRF? As for the RETB, a simple mod as it's not a permanent fixture in the cab.

Do the Colas 67’s have the RETB wiring in place for its aerial and gps? The wiring is ‘permanent’ even if the Cab Display Radio can be removed. There was much hassle using portable radios in 67’s before they left due to electrical interference at one end of the locos when DB withdrew their only RETB fitted loco.

 

[nlogax]

Not too much to see at this time of year though, pitch black almost right to Inverness!

Indeed, spring or autumn are optimum CS travel periods. First time I did a s/b journey was during a mid summer. I didn’t want to sleep, instead just stared out of the window until beyond 11pm! Needless to say I was knackered upon arriving into Euston.

 

[Essexman]

Indeed, spring or autumn are optimum CS travel periods. First time I did a s/b journey was during a mid summer. I didn’t want to sleep, instead just stared out of the window until beyond 11pm! Needless to say I was knackered upon arriving into Euston.

Although I do enjoy a winter trip to Fort William, watching the day get light as we trundle over Rannoch Moor, with breakfast in the lounge car. Preferably with at least a sprinkling of snow on the ground. I hope to do this once again early next year but not if the service isn't reasonably reliable.

 

[_toommm_]

Although I do enjoy a winter trip to Fort William, watching the day get light as we trundle over Rannoch Moor, with breakfast in the lounge car. Preferably with at least a sprinkling of snow on the ground. I hope to do this once again early next year but not if the service isn't reasonably reliable.

It’s just a shame there’s no droplights anymore. On my first (and only) journey up to Fort William I chose to stand by the open window all the way from Helensburgh to Fort William because the views were that amazing.