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Caledonian Sleeper

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RailUK Forums

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6Z09

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Iskra said:
Isn’t that counter-productive? Impeding the railways recovery by deterring passengers is only going to end one way…
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It's absolutely imperative that staff defend their terms and conditions in the next couple of years!

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Caleb2010 said:
I asked CS if this would impact on my journey next Thursday and they said that it was just this week. Next weeks journeys would be going ahead as normal!
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Today , Thursday 11NOV21 and tomorrow Friday 12NOV21 are the days affected, they appear to be trying to run some sort of half baked Lowlander service if you look at their Website.

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Moonshot said:
Industrial action is going to feature a lot more in the next 12 months all over the network.
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It certainly is!
 
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Moonshot

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Iskra said:
Isn’t that counter-productive? Impeding the railways recovery by deterring passengers is only going to end one way…
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Rail staff are perfectly entitled to withdraw there labour after a ballot. This thread has already mentioned strikes on the Sleeper service..... several other threads on different topics have also mentioned this with other TOCs.
 
Iskra

Iskra

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Moonshot said:
Rail staff are perfectly entitled to withdraw there labour after a ballot. This thread has already mentioned strikes on the Sleeper service..... several other threads on different topics have also mentioned this with other TOCs.
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I’m not suggesting that they aren’t.

I am however, questioning the wisdom of such action in the current climate of a railway struggling to fill the farebox.
 
Caleb2010

Caleb2010

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It was the way the OP said Thursday and Friday nights (plural) leading me - at least - to think it was going to be a regular weekly event!

CS confirmed that (at the moment) it’s not a regular thing!

To be honest the Customer service team in Inverness have been brilliant and have changed my booking due to a family bereavement making sure - as far as they can - that everything will be ok!

Can’t fault the workers for that!
 
XAM2175

XAM2175

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Dr Hoo said:
Genuine question, given the long history of portion working in Europe, has such a concept for sleepers been used elsewhere?
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ÖBB's new Nightjet stock will have driving trailers (in the same way the current Railjet rakes do), but I understand it's been prompted by an Italian requirement that services into their terminal stations have to be able to drive out again without a loco run-around.

Other than that, no - between the amount of portion working and the number of multiple-working systems any driving trailer would need to support it's never been worth doing.
 
F

Falcon1200

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Moonshot said:
Rail staff are perfectly entitled to withdraw there labour after a ballot.
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Of course they are, but the public bodies without whose huge subsidy such operations as the Caledonian Sleepers would not exist are equally entitled to review whether this is the best use of their limited funds, and prospective passengers are equally entitled to find other ways to travel; Perhaps permanently.
 
Kite159

Kite159

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Iskra said:
Isn’t that counter-productive? Impeding the railways recovery by deterring passengers is only going to end one way…
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Sadly some staff don't see it like Turkeys voting for Christmas, they fail to take into account the chance that Transport Scotland could simply decide that the Sleeper is a service not worth funding endless millions to run anymore (the taxpayer funding better spent on things more people will use, like a new hospital) and to axe the funding, resulting in the service ceasing to run with job losses.
 
D

Deafdoggie

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Kite159 said:
Sadly some staff don't see it like Turkeys voting for Christmas, they fail to take into account the chance that Transport Scotland could simply decide that the Sleeper is a service not worth funding endless millions to run anymore (the taxpayer funding better spent on things more people will use, like a new hospital) and to axe the funding, resulting in the service ceasing to run with job losses.
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I suspect TS quite like the strike though, it saves a lot of money.
 
6

6Z09

Member
Joined
19 Nov 2009
Messages
499
Kite159 said:
Sadly some staff don't see it like Turkeys voting for Christmas, they fail to take into account the chance that Transport Scotland could simply decide that the Sleeper is a service not worth funding endless millions to run anymore (the taxpayer funding better spent on things more people will use, like a new hospital) and to axe the funding, resulting in the service ceasing to run with job losses.
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A political hot potato is what the Caledonian Sleeper is!
Will certainly survive for the rest of the franchise .
 
D

Deafdoggie

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6Z09 said:
A political hot potato is what the Caledonian Sleeper is!
Will certainly survive for the rest of the franchise .
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I'd like to agree, and would have. But covid has changed the political landscape and money is now less abundant. Every penny of expenditure is being scrutinised. The cost savings from the strike may be noticed and encouraged.
 
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Bill57p9

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Dr Hoo said:
I dare say that this has been covered before. Genuine question, given the long history of portion working in Europe, has such a concept for sleepers been used elsewhere?

I must admit that I couldn't really see very significant savings myself, given the particular complexities of the GB operation.
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Having a driving trailer would remove the need for an additional 92 and driver at both Glasgow and Euston, plus the need for a shunter to run the locomotive(s) round at Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William. I would have thought this would have been sufficient to fund the additional cost before even considering the improved resilience through reduced complexity. I think the only shunt that would remain complex would be the three way join/split of the Highlander at Edinburgh Waverley, however keeping that all in one place would bring it's own benefits.

Still, it's a bit late now. I suppose the Night Rivera could use a surplus DVT but doesn't in favour of top & tailing between Reading and Paddington.

One thing I can't quite understand though is why the additional Glasgow 92 runs light to Edinburgh and back each night - Presumably a staffing move? Neither this nor the Edinburgh Lowlander portion 92 is (usually) used for the Highlander, which just seems a waste of resources.


On a different subject, I noticed that last night's 66+73 from Inverness used the Niddrie triangle to turn round. Not sure how common this is.
 
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JonathanH

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Bill57p9 said:
Having a driving trailer would remove the need for an additional 92 and driver at both Glasgow and Euston, plus the need for a shunter to run the locomotive(s) round at Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William. I would have thought this would have been sufficient to fund the additional cost before even considering the improved resilience through reduced complexity. I think the only shunt that would remain complex would be the three way join/split of the Highlander at Edinburgh Waverley, however keeping that all in one place would bring it's own benefits.
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I think the point missed though is that you would need multiple cabs. While the electric locomotive is being taken off the east end at Edinburgh, the diesel locomotive is going on the west end. The same applies with the split at Carstairs.

Would a 16-coach train work well propelled from the rear? Even just taking the Glasgow / Edinburgh train, you would need four cabs wasting precious space for berths within the formation.
 
B

Bill57p9

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JonathanH said:
I think the point missed though is that you would need multiple cabs. While the electric locomotive is being taken off the east end at Edinburgh, the diesel locomotive is going on the west end. The same applies with the split at Carstairs.

Would a 16-coach train work well propelled from the rear? Even just taking the Glasgow / Edinburgh train, you would need four cabs wasting precious space for berths within the formation.
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What is in my head is to have a driving cab in the seated coaches only.
That would eliminate the need for running round or top/tail everywhere except where the portions split/combine, i.e. Carstairs for the lowlander and Waverley for the Highlander.

The locomotives would remain at the far end of the portion, probably the down end on WCML. Yes, it would mean an extra cab in the middle of a 16 coach formation and yes combining the Fort William in Waverley would be even more complex because the loco would end up at the west end, but a net simplification over the whole operation by removing shunts at Euston (X2), Glasgow, Fort William, Inverness, Aberdeen and Edinburgh (lowlander).

As you rightly say, not sure how smooth pushing would be over 16 carriages, but Dellners should make it as good as it is going to get.
 
TimboM

TimboM

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12 Apr 2016
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6Z09 said:
A political hot potato is what the Caledonian Sleeper is!
Will certainly survive for the rest of the franchise .
Click to expand...
Indeed - once again folk on here failing to realise that Transport Scotland cannot just end the current franchise without paying up the contracts of those engaged to run it until 2030 (e.g. GBRf, Alstom etc) or continuing to incur the financial costs linked to acquiring the Mk5s. It would COST a lot of money to end it now, not save it!

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Bill57p9 said:
One thing I can't quite understand though is why the additional Glasgow 92 runs light to Edinburgh and back each night - Presumably a staffing move? Neither this nor the Edinburgh Lowlander portion 92 is (usually) used for the Highlander, which just seems a waste of resources.
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The 92 ex-Glasgow ECS runs to Edinburgh (as 0C16 usually) for a couple of reasons - firstly it is there as a standby for 1M16 should the booked loco at Waverley have an issue, meaning any delay is minimised. Otherwise, the only option is bringing up the loco ex-1C11 from Carstairs, but this relies on there not being possessions blocking the route and the issue with the M16 loco being known about in enough time to recall the 1C11 loco before the driver jumps in their van to Polmadie. Having a loco already in Waverley is much more handy!

The 0C16 has been used to cover 1M16 a few times, most recently on Tuesday morning when 92014 replaced 92020 at the last minute when there were problems coupling 92020 up with the stock.

The second important role the 'spare' 92 plays is to shunt the Fort William 'day' coaches onto 1Y11 when 1S25 arrives. Previously the 1Y11 loco(s) had to do this and then run round, which took several minutes longer - and also is not practically feasible with a 66/73 combo as is being used currently.

Previously, the Glasgow ECS 92 (and its driver) would just run back to Polmadie and sit there all night not being utilised (unless something cropped up).

So far from a wasted resource - in fact the opposite when compared to the previous arrangement.
 
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norbitonflyer

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Bill57p9 said:
What is in my head is to have a driving cab in the seated coaches only.
That would eliminate the need for running round or top/tail everywhere except where the portions split/combine, i.e. Carstairs for the lowlander and Waverley for the Highlander.

The locomotives would remain at the far end of the portion, probably the down end on WCML. Yes, it would mean an extra cab in the middle of a 16 coach formation and yes combining the Fort William in Waverley would be even more complex because the loco would end up at the west end, but a net simplification over the whole operation by removing shunts at Euston (X2), Glasgow, Fort William, Inverness, Aberdeen and Edinburgh (lowlander).

As you rightly say, not sure how smooth pushing would be over 16 carriages, but Dellners should make it as good as it is going to get.
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Looking at the Lowlander, if the loco is at the down (Glasgow) end of the train the formations would have the driving trailers at the London end. This would complicate matters at Carstairs as the London end is also the Edinburgh end. The Edinburgh shuttle loco would therefore not be able to attach until the Glasgow portion had left. Likewise on the return journey both portions arriving at Carstairs would have the loco at the same end, meaning one of them would have to be detached before coupling the trains together.

This could be avoided by having the Edinburgh portion in reverse formation (i.e with the two driving trailers in the middle of the 16-coach train) but then you finish up with two sub-fleets, which reduces flexibility, or the need to turn sets round if they are required to work Edinburgh one day and (say) Glasgow the next. Finding a path round the Hamilton Circle or the Camden/Haringey/Canonbury triangle to do this (and the time during the maintenance schedule) might be a challenge, and certainly no less complex than arranging a shunt.

Having a driving trailer at each end would reduce berth capacity even more, and would still be a problem for the Aberdeen/Fort William portions as you would need to provide an extra driving trailer at the position where these are is divided at Edinburgh - which is not the same position every night.
 
43096

43096

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Moonshot said:
Rail staff are perfectly entitled to withdraw there labour after a ballot. This thread has already mentioned strikes on the Sleeper service..... several other threads on different topics have also mentioned this with other TOCs.
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The customers are also entitled to withdraw their custom without any notice. Without customers, there's no need for staff.
 
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