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Caledonian Sleeper
- Thread starter Essexman
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RailUK Forums
_toommm_
Established Member
Hoping to give it another go at getting that 73 moving tonight:
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Realtime Trains - 8Z73 2336 Stirling to Mossend Pd Stlg Gbrf
Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Anyone travelled over the past two nights?
A trip report would be interesting if anyone has!
Was the experience much improved with the presence of the very " senior management "on board staffing??
Was the lounge open? Food available?
Room service up to standard? Good levels of communication?
So many questions!
A trip report would be interesting if anyone has!
Was the experience much improved with the presence of the very " senior management "on board staffing??
Was the lounge open? Food available?
Room service up to standard? Good levels of communication?
So many questions!
Here's a question for CS users. I am planning a long weekend going down to London from Glasgow, and can leave anytime after work on Thursday. Will be staying with family. Which of the following would you say is the most comfortable and relaxing journey:
- Avanti Standard Premium. 5.30pm-10.30pm. 5 hour journey. 12 stops (!). Crowded train? Sleep in a real bed. £65
- CS single Cabin. Arrive in time for family breakfast. £100
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Day train, no question of it
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Definitely 1. Best First Class "hard product" in the UK and great/interesting views all the way. I love the "full" WCML trip, the scenery "tells the story" of the whole of the UK, give or take only a tiny bit by Hest Bank actually being coastal!
(Obviously less to see if it's dark, but if it's not cloudy you'll see shadows of mountains etc which is still nice!)
Outside of disruption Avanti services are normally not overcrowded.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Pendolino First Class seat is excellent, best in the UK in my view. Nothing like the Fainsa junk in the 80x. I even prefer them to the old leather GWR "armchairs".
Given the recent problems with Caledonian sleeper
Avanti West Coast is a no brainer solution. With the Standard Premium option. Never usually too busy. Just remember to bring your own food and drinks. Also worth looking at LNER who sometimes do deals too.
OK, very useful to know. I guess I am harbouring this fantasy of the CS being like the Orient Express when in reality it seems to be a bit of a rough ride for all but the heavy sleepers.
Techniquest
Veteran Member
It isn't as great as one would expect, that's for sure. The service is ideal for longer trips to the Far North, I'll give it that, but even then I'd prefer day trains if possible.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Highlander is quite useful, yes, due to the long journey times by day train. I can't imagine a situation where I'd want to use the Lowlander rather than a 4 hour day train or flight.
xotGD
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2017
- Messages
- 7,813
I travelled Friday night if that helps.
66708/73967
indeed Wednesday -Friday I was in Scotland, going between Glasgow-Edinburgh-Dundee-Perth-Inverness and Wick, then overnighted the Highlander to London.
I noticed a very heavy police presence through out Scotland’s main stations, especially Glasgow. Indeed the Inverness -Glasgow HST had dogs going through the train before departure and quite a heavy presence at gates.
Though conversely Scotland were playing Tonga on Saturday too.
As for the southbound highlander, Opened boarding at Friday night 8pm, lots of families with kids, who quietely settled into their berths.
departed just after the Highland Chieftain arrived.
We were in coach P, next to the locos, sounded good on departure even behind the double glazing.
Until Aviemore the lounge is reserved for the higher paying folks.
Went down to the lounge, unfortunately they had run out of food.
We were told all food comes up from London, and they sold out on the way up.
That told me:
1. that Southbound food isnt fresh, at least 3 days old.
2. isnt Scottish as I was expecting.
Had crisps, a nice Auchentoshen and returned to the room around 11pm.
It was quiet in the lounge.
Started sleeping, but a woke to a fantastic racing run on welded rail, I didnt want to look at the clock, thought as I couldnt hear the locos we must be behind the 92 southbound already, with carriage P now at the rear.
A few mins later we slowed and stopped, and I could hear the 73/66 again and thought wow they were really kicking it, so had a peek, saw Haymarket around midnight.
I dozed a bit through the shunting, which seemed considerable, certainly thought we shunted into the tunnel, and passed the FW 73 during the move.
Next up was a feeling of huge amounts of pointwork, I assumed this to be Crewe, fell asleep again…
Then my alarm went off at 7 am, we had just stopped at a station. I heard the announcer offering platforms for Manchester Piccadilly and Stoke, and thought huh oh.. By the time I debunked myself to the phone, we were leaving Crewe heading on 2 hours late. That pointwork must have been Carlilse, as I had a long sleep between the two events.
(Its notable our sleeper was the only one delayed by bad weather).
Service motored on down to Euston. I could hear a kid next door coughing constantly, so at Euston we decided to use the next exit. Arrived about 90 late. Friendly driver let my little one up close to the loco.
Bedding was great, bed was comfortable. The lounge car was a little vibratative at times (I videoed it), but the berths were not.
The stock is clean, modern and fresh, great air flow. Temperature control in the rooms is responsive. The room is well laid out.
Ive done sleepers in Malaysia, China, US, Russia, Hungary, France and USA, this one is the best quality.
only grip was the lack of food, wifi wasnt the best either..but when is it in the highlands ? Absolutely will be doing it again.
interestingly Carriage P was not rear most, but actually middle of the train.
Staff are great on the sleeper, very friendly, chatty and helpful, from the moment they boarded us to the moment we left and the driver too… they absolutely made the service good.
Unfortunately the delay scuppered my plans to see the 40’s in the west country, but i certainly had enough rest to go all day around London.
Was it worth it, well my little one had the biggest smile on her face in months, so a definite yes from her, she slept all through. I would have to but I was too interested in the goings on. Its clean, ambient, quiet and the beds / blankets are good.. thats what you need. Food would have been nice, but aside of Railtours food by rail in the UK is always poor compared to the rest of the world, so expectation wasnt high.
I think CS has tons of potential, it seems to be not best managed in its current form, but the stock, staff and service are among the better overnight trains ive been on, finding seats can be quite tough, so its not as if demand isnt there. I’d reccomend it, will do it again.
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Techniquest
Veteran Member
In terms of the flight choice, my choice would be the Lowlander if I had my bike with me. For obvious reasons! However I would choose a 4 hour day train if I could, a much more fun way to travel and a proper bed at the end of the journey. Impossible to beat!
I'm a regular traveller on this route both on Day Train and Sleeper. My only observation here is that I have found I suffer from motion sickness when travelling at night in a Pendolino. So I would choose the Sleeper in this instance. The 5.30 from Glasgow is usually not that busy. £100 fare on CS is a real steal in my opinion.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This is I think the issue. Some can sleep like a log on a train (some even on a bus). I can't - it needs to be dark, horizontal and quiet or it'll be broken sleep. So even 4 hours in my own bed (or a decent hotel bed e.g. Premier Inn) is preferable to 7 on a train.
That's a very interesting comment. Were you ever in the front coach? because it's supposed to manifest more there. Here's another quote from a different forum user I just dug up that tallies with yours:
Nice report. Interesting you mention the delay — that would actually sell me on the journey if I were doing it for leisure. I wonder if consideration has been given to intentionally running the services more slowly to give people more of an on train experience and rest?
That might be a good bit of spin the marketing team could apply to the current strike timetable (Lowlander running in the Highlander path between Euston and Edinburgh, so an extra hour southbound and 2.5 hours northbound).
Joking aside, I see your point. Would earlier boarding/later disembarkation fill this need? Granted this would only resolve the issue for end terminal users however would mean those in a rush wouldn't be adversely affected. That said when I used the up Lowlander it had already arrived in Euston at our booked breakfast time: Sitting there staring at Euston platforms from the lounge car wasn't a magical experience. Also of course CS don't have an exemplary track record on honouring advertised boarding or vacate times...
No, usually one or two coaches back. I thought it was just me but then I mentioned to a colleague and he said he'd felt exactly the same way. I'm absolutely fine on them in the daytime. I'm now booked to travel down the East Coast next time to avoid this, even though its at least an hour slower.
To return to the subject of the sleeper though, I've been long distance commuting on it regularly this year and to be honest its been great overall. A few niggles, but overall really very good.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Off topic but I seem to recall that each coach in a pendolino works out its tilt from what the coach in front is experiencing. That means the leading coach will always be a bit "clumsy" or late. If true that would lead to the actual tilt not being as near enough to perfect as the following coaches are. I could be wrong though.
I suppose it is a two edged sword. There will be those guests who do not want to be too late and others who would rather have more time in bed. Platforms at Euston are scarce so the train is not going to be usable as a sleeping area for long there. Perhaps guests could stay on board as the stock trundles to the depot and then continue their journey from Stonebridge Park or somewhere better.
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I am keen-ish to try the sleeper. Especially if going down to London for a short break it does save staring out of train windows for 10 hours round trip. I'm just balking a little at the price. The £100 fares are not that common, more like £125 a few weeks in advance.
Also, I'm definitely getting LUMO on the way back. London-Glasgow minimum CS fare is £170. Not sure of the logic of that but I guess they have higher northbound demand.
There is the 10-ticket Carnet - but that's still £165 per single.
Also, I'm definitely getting LUMO on the way back. London-Glasgow minimum CS fare is £170. Not sure of the logic of that but I guess they have higher northbound demand.
There is the 10-ticket Carnet - but that's still £165 per single.
This is where I think they miss out.
If you look at hotel cost and rail fare, Scotrail sleeper is good value.
The longer Highland sleeper journey was what sold me (This was a half term leisure trip). I have to admit I wasnt too upset about the extra delay (though if it had been a business trip I might have been).
its still a train, trying to be a hotel.
They might do better to think first of it as a hotel, with a train attached..
When I check in to a hotel, usually I dump stuff, explore and usually food follows. If there is no local plan, food then moves to the bar.
With kids, the plan is to get them fed and settled with minimal fuss/rush.
If i’m on business, I check in, check emails and like to be around the bar or coffee area.
In our case, it was leisure, We arrived from Wick at 6pm, 3 hours was plenty of time to connect, the station staff at Inverness are really enthusiast and family friendly.. they reccomended “Platform 8” (the pub next to the station).., having been there I really do too, great steaks !, exit the station, turn right about 4-5 doors down.
When we went in, we had dinner, drinks and time to relax…
“Platform 8“ pub was full of Sleeper passengers doing the same thing, as we left, there was a stream of people with wheelies migrating to Platform 1.
It would have been nice to have instead checked in early on the sleeper, which had been in platform 1 since 4pm, dump stuff, feed kids in the lounge car, settle down and retire to the room… just to have the ambient of being around the train.. perfect for kids who then can be heading to bed shortly on departure, and leaving the lounge for a second sitting of passengers… There is a good strong revenue stream of food and drink being lost to the pub as we werent the only ones by a long way!
I got c8 hours sleep on the train out of 13.5 travelled, it would have been a good solid 8 hours too but each distration was too interesting for me to ignore (I was actively trying to guess where we were with my eyes closed.. failed), but a normal person would sleep fine, indeed the trains rocking makes it very easy to nod off.. my little one didnt make 5 minutes before she was gone (at home it can take 30+ mins!).
We were right at the front from Inverness, the 66 kicked in then the 73 drowned it out by Culloden.. sounded great, but once the window blind closes the noise reduces.
As I said above its a clean, fresh environment, very modern, feels very safe. The beds and bed linen is good, no creaky beds, the temperature setting are good. Wash stand, folding table and movable steps, under bed luggage storage.
The train itself was sold out, but onboard it was very quiet, very few people moving out.
We booked last minute, literally last room available, this is the basic sleeper compartment (more upscale ones definitely exist)…checkout the pillows…
compares to the mk3 sleeper stock of 2019…
Above new vs old lounge…check out the CS lampshades
(If you look carefully you can see the placemats havent changed )
Would be nice to have a “Caledonian sleeper” door key than a plain white one, but then again if they did we’d have nicked it, but done right it could be a business card too as a souvenir.
Coming back to the hotel vs train…
breaking out hotel rate as a separate line item from rail fare in an “invoice” rather than a ticket, would make it easier for business travellers accounts teams to understand.. (Today Many would see it as an expensive train ticket and refuse it rather than a hotel and rail fare for example).
coming back to the food thing, We ate before boarding, but went to the lounge to experience onboard dining (a starter would do). I was surprised to find nothing on the menu being available… can you imagine a hotel with no food for room service* or the restaurant ?
*They did have porridge in pots available for breakfast, or a bacon butty delivered to the room before arrival in London.
I’ll definitely use it again, for business on Glasgow / Edinburgh it would be nice to have that earlier checkin, access to bar/food onboard even if departure time remains the same… They wouldnt need the dedicated sleeper lounges at Glasgow/Edinburgh/Inverness stations etc that way either, we didnt use them (didnt know if we could, and the pub was more appealing than the station lounge anyway).
Unless youve got £4k for the Royal Scotsman, this is the closest to a luxury overnight train most of us will get to ride overnight on, having done sleepers in different countries, this is definitely a good one. The staff certainly have pride in it, which makes for half of the story.
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Techniquest
Veteran Member
I'm similar, I found the only way I could sleep on the Down Lowlander when I did it last year was to be beyond exhausted. It's the only way I can sleep on coaches, planes or anything else. My own bed or a decent bed in an Airbnb or hotel, the best way to do things.
There's also the fact a nice and fast run up the WCML on maximum tilt on a 390 is enjoyable for me, and it's the more sensible option than crossing the country to London to join the Lowlander. Unnecessary mileage! If I was going to somewhere like Inverness, with connections to the likes of Thurso, then I'd have to consider the sleeper with a connection onto the Highlander at Crewe. Preference would still be to journey to Edinburgh and pick up the Highland Chieftain for a night in Inverness though!
There's also the fact that on the Lowlander you would only get a full 8 hours sleep if you dropped off the moment you boarded, whereas the Highlander you have more time to settle in.
I find it puzzling that the internet is full of people giving 1 star reviews for the sleep quality of the CS, and yet Scottish MPs etc. seem to be loyal customers. I recall Kirsty Wark from Newsnight saying she would have a whisky or 2 when setting off from London, so perhaps that's the trick!
@Techniquest , I haven't spotted many fast runs on the WCML unless you travel in the middle of the day. 4 hr 50 seem to be quite common.
I find it puzzling that the internet is full of people giving 1 star reviews for the sleep quality of the CS, and yet Scottish MPs etc. seem to be loyal customers. I recall Kirsty Wark from Newsnight saying she would have a whisky or 2 when setting off from London, so perhaps that's the trick!
@Techniquest , I haven't spotted many fast runs on the WCML unless you travel in the middle of the day. 4 hr 50 seem to be quite common.
kentrailman
Member
Yes, if lowlander took more time it would be a better prospect. I guess issues include platform occupation but also not wanting to extend the shifts of the staff so they clock on as late as possible and off as early as possible. It arrived almost an hour early into Euston though when I was on it.
Also surely better if in the event of problems on the longer distance services if they are not emptied out to bus transfers in the early hours but left somewhere to wait until a reasonable hour . Delay repay rules modified accordingly.. I would rather have some sleep and no refund for being late than being got out of bed at 4am ! But I guess same issues of staff and platforming .. And stock positioning ..apply.
Also surely better if in the event of problems on the longer distance services if they are not emptied out to bus transfers in the early hours but left somewhere to wait until a reasonable hour . Delay repay rules modified accordingly.. I would rather have some sleep and no refund for being late than being got out of bed at 4am ! But I guess same issues of staff and platforming .. And stock positioning ..apply.
the internet is full of angry, malicious, self-entitled, ventrific anonymous people.
That gives them a voice for 1 star reviews, voting for BoatyMcBoatface and Brexit, politics etc.
Where as those who have no complaints or issues tend not to leave feedback and continue their daily lives.
I treat all such reviews with suspicion, many are just “critical issues to 1 person” but tend to be “qualitative” source material for the negative news Media.
Admittedly, if you were travelling from Aberdeen last week, you might have a gripe, as there wasn't a train most of the week..
When reading those reviews, it should be considered those who are just ranting, and those with genuine complaint.
My thoughts on improvement is really about management / resourcing.. its not being exploited to its commercial best, at the same time its under resourced… one is a by product of the other… if this was a Marriott/GBRF venture rather than a Serco/GBRF venture I suspect much would change very quickly.
i’d give the sleeper an 8/10 from my experience, but admittedly I too have not left a tripadvisor review with 4 stars, perhaps I should… it would be a pity if the naysayers damaged this product… it is pretty good imho… it’d be nice if TPE bought some lounge cars for their services too…there is a potentially nice day product there too.
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I am fairly good at filtering out reviews from people that just want to have a moan. Quite a few mentioned that "the driver was driving like a madman", and "it felt like a rollercoaster" which is a fair point.
Is there a technical reason, beyond using more electricity, why the Lowlander couldn't travel a more indirect route to London and thus go at a slower pace? I understand the 7am arrival at Euston is so that some customers can catch morning flights from Heathrow, but surely if they set off at say 10pm on a longer route, the speed could be dropped?
Is there a technical reason, beyond using more electricity, why the Lowlander couldn't travel a more indirect route to London and thus go at a slower pace? I understand the 7am arrival at Euston is so that some customers can catch morning flights from Heathrow, but surely if they set off at say 10pm on a longer route, the speed could be dropped?