Caledonian Sleeper

[JonathanH]

For the last 18 months, Serco will have been on a form of contract that enabled them to make a very small % profit on costs. In that time they might have earned a few hundred thousand pounds profit (complete guess based on 2% of costs). That is set against tens of millions of losses for the previous years.

I get the impression that the OP doesn't think it is reasonable for public money to be paid to a private company which might make a profit on other activities.

 

[HST274]

I would have booked Fort William trip to have had longer on board as actually hired a car and drove to fort William anyway, but reading posts here put me off as couldn't risk being turfed out onto a bus at 4am somewhere, especially a potentially covid filled bus as am not as young as I was.

To be fair the Fort William sleeper seems to be one of the more reliable services, and the scenery certainly makes up for any lack of sleep somewhat. However I can understand the risk that is always present on a CS trip and Edinburgh is probably the one service that is guaranteed to deliver you to your destination eventually!

 

[6Z09]

To be fair the Fort William sleeper seems to be one of the more reliable services, and the scenery certainly makes up for any lack of sleep somewhat. However I can understand the risk that is always present on a CS trip and Edinburgh is probably the one service that is guaranteed to deliver you to your destination eventually!

In a berth, yes, Fort William is reliable, Seated or with a bike, you are guaranteed a disturbed journey with swapping coaches at Edinburgh , northbound up to an hour on the platform at Waverley on occasion , not really the most magical of journeys.

 

[williamn]

I’m not sure anyone would pretend the seated coach is a magical journey.

 

[6Z09]

I’m not sure anyone would pretend the seated coach is a magical journey.

Probably not, apart from the Caledonian Sleeper website.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure anyone would pretend the seated coach is a magical journey.

In a way it sort of is, but in an "adventure" sense rather than a "luxury" sense. I'd say the most magical rail journey I have ever done was Bangalore to Delhi, 48 hours on a five foot by two foot shelf - nothing comfortable about that!

 

[LeylandLen]

I see last nights 1S25 was terminated at Perth at 0703 today. A tweet says 'broken down train' Has anyone anymore info please ?
It was about 34 late out of Euston due to late boarding .

 

[John Bishop]

I see last nights 1S25 was terminated at Perth at 0703 today. A tweet says 'broken down train' Has anyone anymore info please ?
It was about 34 late out of Euston due to late boarding .

Traction issues.

 

[najaB]

It was about 34 late out of Euston due to late boarding .

Looks like that was made up by an quicker than usual split at Edinburgh though. Whatever went wrong was between Larbert and Perth.

 

[_toommm_]

Looks like the service from Inverness (1M16) is having some trouble this evening. Currently 84 late and getting later.

 

[John Bishop]

Looks like the service from Inverness (1M16) is having some trouble this evening. Currently 84 late and getting later.

it came north empty from Perth with the 73 and one of the RHTT 66s yesterday so wondering if it’s gone south with a single 73 on it?

 

[221129]

it came north empty from Perth with the 73 and one of the RHTT 66s yesterday so wondering if it’s gone south with a single 73 on it?

Single 73 on the Inverness this morning so most likely.

 

[williamn]

I’m currently on the Southbound Aberdeen portion which I guess was held up waiting for that Inverness portion, so currently about 90 mins late. First delay on the sleeper in 9 journeys this year. A lie in and all my money back so really not that bad!

 

[John Bishop]

I’m currently on the Southbound Aberdeen potion which I guess was held up waiting for that Inverness potion, so currently about 90 mins late. First delay on the sleeper in 9 journeys this year. A lie in and all my money back so really not that bad!

1M16 reportedly failed at Stirling last night due to severe wheel flats on the class 73 as well as earlier loco issues on HML. Not a great day yesterday for the Inverness portion.

This mornings Inverness is currently running 80 late.

 

[Jessicas Dad]

1M16 reportedly failed at Stirling last night due to severe wheel flats on the class 73 as well as earlier loco issues on HML. Not a great day yesterday for the Inverness portion.

This mornings Inverness is currently running 80 late.

I see on traksy that the sleeper coaches (presumably still with 73 attached) are still sitting in Stirling P3 as of 13.27.

Just as well Stirling has P6 to route the Southbound stuff through!

 

[John Bishop]

Aberdeen and FW portions cancelled this morning (s/b FW last night also) due to fall out of traction issues yesterday at Stirling on 1M16.

Stranded coaches were recovered early this morning from Stirling but 73 needs wheel skates to be transferred back to Craigentinny for repair.

 

[221129]

Aberdeen and FW portions cancelled this morning (s/b FW last night also) due to fall out of traction issues yesterday at Stirling on 1M16.

I'm not sure the issues are related. The Aberdeen is almost always cancelled due to lack of staff. The Fort William line had a lot of weather related issues last night as well.

 

[John Bishop]

I'm not sure the issues are related. The Aberdeen is almost always cancelled due to lack of staff. The Fort William line had a lot of weather related issues last night as well.

FW was cancelled this morning due to needing the traction to recover the disabled 73 which is causing platform issues at Stirling.

 

[43096]

FW was cancelled this morning due to needing the traction to recover the disabled 73 which is causing platform issues at Stirling.

The whole set was stuck at Stirling, not just the loco. So they were a set short in London last night, so one of the Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness or Fort Bill/Aberdeen was going to be cancelled.

 

[kylemore]

Serco have lost tens of millions operating the Caledonian Sleeper (and will do over the course of the franchise whatever happens down the line) - but please don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

The only people who benefit financially are the passengers who actually pay less than half of what it costs for them to be on the train - the rest is covered by government subsidies and (prior to Covid) Serco's losses.

Sleeper trains are inherently very expensive to run as require a lot of assets and crew over long distances with comparatively low passenger numbers (when compared to something like a Pendolino).

My apologies, in that case Serco should be praised for their Public Spiritedness in subsidising the Government.

Mind you I can't imagine that was their intention.

Why can't the daytime operators simply run an overnight seated service aimed at the coach market?

A gap in the market for Lumo?

After all the coaches used on overnight services are exactly the same ones that are used on daytime services. It could serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow leaving London around midnight and running at a more modest pace than their daytime trains to save power and fit in with overnight freight arriving Edinburgh around 6am and Glasgow (Queen St to connect with West Highland?) around 7am, ready to operate a daytime service after cleaning. Security might be an issue but surely that could be overcome.

 

[Falcon1200]

In the early days of privatisation GNER did run a Friday-only 2010 Glasgow Central-Kings X, which I used occasionally, despite it arriving in London at an unearthly hour ! I was never quite sure of its purpose, running in one direction only, one day a week.

 

[JonathanH]

Why can't the daytime operators simply run an overnight seated service aimed at the coach market?

1. It would be too quick - Lumo are already intending to run early and late services from both ends
2. The coach market is typically much less than the capacity of one train (despite what 'paul1609' says about occasional duplicates).

 

[Bletchleyite]

After all the coaches used on overnight services are exactly the same ones that are used on daytime services. It could serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow leaving London around midnight and running at a more modest pace than their daytime trains to save power and fit in with overnight freight arriving Edinburgh around 6am and Glasgow (Queen St to connect with West Highland?) around 7am, ready to operate a daytime service after cleaning. Security might be an issue but surely that could be overcome.

If you're doing it with day trains, earlier first trains and later last trains are probably a better way of doing it. Most people won't sleep well in a seat, so getting to bed at 3am (e.g. from a 2300ish Euston-Glasgow HS2 service) or getting up for a 4am departure is for most people preferable to sitting up all night on a train or coach.

The coaches don't demonstrate a big market - if full, that's just 60ish people per night, not many.

Might be worth doing it one-off for specific events, though, e.g. during the Edinburgh Festival.

 

[Bill57p9]

Why can't the daytime operators simply run an overnight seated service aimed at the coach market?

A gap in the market for Lumo?

After all the coaches used on overnight services are exactly the same ones that are used on daytime services. It could serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow leaving London around midnight and running at a more modest pace than their daytime trains to save power and fit in with overnight freight arriving Edinburgh around 6am and Glasgow (Queen St to connect with West Highland?) around 7am, ready to operate a daytime service after cleaning. Security might be an issue but surely that could be overcome.

British Rail ran such services in the 80s under the "Nightrider" brand. There is a forum thread on them here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nightriders-1m11.56921/

I did a few All Line Rail Rovers in the early 90's when the Glasgow and Aberdeen sleepers both included several seated coaches which were always well patronised. Obviously though this was before low cost airlines took hold, plus a fair proportion of the summer passengers were InterRailers, so how much revenue it could generate today would be up for debate. Still, as you say it might be worth Lumo taking a look. They could nicely argue that they are targeting a very different market from CS and therefore pose little thread to revenue extraction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

British Rail ran such services in the 80s under the "Nightrider" brand. There is a forum thread on them here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nightriders-1m11.56921/

I did a few All Line Rail Rovers in the early 90's when the Glasgow and Aberdeen sleepers both included several seated coaches which were always well patronised. Obviously though this was before low cost airlines took hold, plus a fair proportion of the summer passengers were InterRailers, so how much revenue it could generate today would be up for debate. Still, as you say it might be worth Lumo taking a look. They could nicely argue that they are targeting a very different market from CS and therefore pose little thread to revenue extraction.

A Mk1 TSO on the back of a postal or newspaper train would make it viable as it was marginal income, I believe. Not possible now.

 

[zwk500]

A Mk1 TSO on the back of a postal or newspaper train would make it viable as it was marginal income, I believe. Not possible now.

Maybe ROG/Orion could tag a passenger 319 on the back of their overnight parcels?

 

[kylemore]

1. It would be too quick - Lumo are already intending to run early and late services from both ends
2. The coach market is typically much less than the capacity of one train (despite what 'paul1609' says about occasional duplicates).

1. Which is why I suggested running at reduced speed to fit in with the overnight intermodals and to save power.

2.It's been a while since I was involved however duplication was not at all uncommon at Edinburgh Bus Station, particularly at weekends and during the summer season generally - perhaps it could be tried on a seasonal basis to test the market.

 

[JonathanH]

1. Which is why I suggested running at reduced speed to fit in with the overnight intermodals and to save power.

2.It's been a while since I was involved however duplication was not at all uncommon at Edinburgh Bus Station, particularly at weekends and during the summer season generally - perhaps it could be tried on a seasonal basis to test the market.

...oh, and there is also the lighting issue

 

[najaB]

It's been a while since I was involved however duplication was not at all uncommon at Edinburgh Bus Station, particularly at weekends and during the summer season generally - perhaps it could be tried on a seasonal basis to test the market.

Even if National Express/Megabus are running two coaches each that's what - maybe 100-150 seats? There's about 400 seats in Lumo's 803s so that is a very bit uplift in capacity.

 

[35B]

A Mk1 TSO on the back of a postal or newspaper train would make it viable as it was marginal income, I believe. Not possible now.

In July 1992, I used the Scotrail internal overnight services between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Inverness. They'd gone over to 158s, weren't that well loaded, and tipped out at Inverness at silly o'clock in the morning. It didn't come as a surprise to discover they were soon killed off.