Caledonian Sleeper

[najaB]

They're already doing this with advances on the classic and club rooms.

And doing the same with reasonably-priced supplements wouldn't hurt. I had a look in BRFares.com and couldn't see any supplement priced under £120. I used to fairly regularly travel down to London (and parts south) on a day train on the Sunday and get the sleeper back up on Friday night on a supplement. I've changed jobs since so don't have to make those journeys, but if I had to do it now I'd probably just leave early on Friday afternoon.

 

[alistairlees]

They get a lot less money from a supplement though.

 

[HST274]

I agree. They have to be relying on promises to tourists of a grand journey to Scotland in their business model.

What keeps the SW sleeper going ?. Plymouth ?.

Like someone said cornwall tourists. personally I went via London just to go on it on the way to Cornwall but that is a minute section of people. Also in the morning a lot of people use it is a day train to penzance from Hayle etc. In the seats

 

[alistairlees]

Also in the morning a lot of people use it is a day train to Penzance from Hayle etc. In the seats

It doesn't pick up at any of those stations any more, so I doubt it.

 

[HST274]

Just wondering, while i don't doubt the staff member said it would, surely they would have announced the lounges opening by now? After all it would only bring positive PR

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2021 ==

It doesn't pick up at any of those stations any more, so I doubt it.

Oh I see. I believe it was as a result of covid as with CS (?) so maybe they'll reinstate it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh I see. I believe it was as a result of covid as with CS (?) so maybe they'll reinstate it

With the Riviera it was because of the risk felt to be posed by the use of slamdoors by larger numbers of passengers (or more specifically sticking their heads out of the windows thereof), so it won't be reinstated unless the Riviera stock is replaced with power door stock.

 

[najaB]

They get a lot less money from a supplement though.

True. Though less is more than none.

With the Riviera it was because of the risk felt to be posed by the use of slamdoors by larger numbers of passengers (or more specifically sticking their heads out of the windows thereof), so it won't be reinstated unless the Riviera stock is replaced with power door stock.

Which kinda makes sense, now that the HSTs have been retired the Rivera stock will be the only regularly-operating slam door stock, combined with operation in the early hours of the morning when many people are less alert, the risk of accident would be a lot higher.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

True. Though less is more than none.

Which kinda makes sense, now that the HSTs have been retired the Rivera stock will be the only regularly-operating slam door stock, combined with operation in the early hours of the morning when many people are less alert, the risk of accident would be a lot higher.

Also because there's less opportunity to do so, enthusiasts tend to seek out slam door trains.

 

[Horizon22]

What keeps the SW sleeper going ?. Plymouth ?.

Subsidies - from the local authority(ies) and the rest of the GWR operation and some Cornish tourists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also because there's less opportunity to do so, enthusiasts tend to seek out slam door trains.

This is generally true but I doubt many of them would be getting up at the crack of dawn to use the Riviera in that way.

 

[InOban]

They're already doing this with advances on the classic and club rooms.

A land-based hotel often has last minute cheap rooms on the basis that,as long as the revenue covers the marginal cost of housekeeping etc, it's better than being empty. I can imagine that some people might be tempted by a last minute trip ; there are people who travel to London for the day to take in a matinee or an exhibition and might be tempted to a short-notice sleeper.

 

[XAM2175]

They get a lot less money from a supplement though.

True. Though less is more than none.

A land-based hotel often has last minute cheap rooms on the basis that,as long as the revenue covers the marginal cost of housekeeping etc, it's better than being empty. I can imagine that some people might be tempted by a last minute trip ; there are people who travel to London for the day to take in a matinee or an exhibition and might be tempted to a short-notice sleeper.

Yeah, but on that basis, if they've got empty rooms surely it's in their interest to fill them wherever possible with people on advance sleeper-only tickets?

In my mind, reducing the price of supplements for fully-interavailable tickets only makes sense at the point where even the cheapest advances haven't sold and CS are genuinely about to have a train go out with empty beds - and since that point is so close to departure time, I reckon they'd do better just offering cheap upgrades to people already in the sleeper seats.

 

[najaB]

In my mind, reducing the price of supplements for fully-interavailable tickets only makes sense at the point where even the cheapest advances haven't sold and CS are genuinely about to have a train go out with empty beds - and since that point is so close to departure time, I reckon they'd do better just offering cheap upgrades to people already in the sleeper seats.

I would treat supplements and the lower-priced advances as the same pool of beds and open them up about a week prior to the departure date. By that time the core tourist market will already have booked so you'll have a decent idea of how full the train is likely to be.

 

[Devonian]

What keeps the SW sleeper going ?. Plymouth ?

Mainly Cornwall travellers, pre- Covid some weekly London based workers, no idea if any have returned yet ? Plymouth timings are not great (0530 ish arrival) - it used to have it's own portion until 2006.

And two specific practical uses that are not covered by any other rail services: passengers from London to the Isles of Scilly who wish to travel on the Scillonian III, which leaves from Penzance once a day just after 9am, and passengers from Cornwall who need to be in London by 9am. The loss of the Plymouth slip coach has made the sleeper a right pain from south Devon in both directions, but it has never been the main market.

GWR's is a much more traditional sleeper operation in concept and execution, and frankly much better for it. It is, of course, subsidised, but it's also been busy enough in normal times for the number of sleeper carriages to be increased several times.

 

[XAM2175]

I would treat supplements and the lower-priced advances as the same pool of beds and open them up about a week prior to the departure date. By that time the core tourist market will already have booked so you'll have a decent idea of how full the train is likely to be.

Yeah, something like that would be fair. I've no problem at all with lowering fares (and obviously, margins) to fill berths that would otherwise go empty, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't abstract capacity from higher-margin tickets, or create an expectation that the reduced fares are normal.

 

[Meerkat]

I would treat supplements and the lower-priced advances as the same pool of beds and open them up about a week prior to the departure date. By that time the core tourist market will already have booked so you'll have a decent idea of how full the train is likely to be.

Got to factor in the risk that passengers delay hoping to get a cheaper ticket so you are cannibalising your own full price income.

 

[najaB]

Got to factor in the risk that passengers delay hoping to get a cheaper ticket so you are cannibalising your own full price income.

That's already a risk when you offer Advances. Even if you're offering them early some people who book the Advance discounted price would also have paid full price.

 

[AberdeenBill]

Going back a few years to before the new stock came in, but I once had the indignity of being forced to split a carriage between myself and two other passengers one February*!

That was an outlier, but I suspect the loadings won't be significantly higher now than they were then.

*Edit: Might have been in January now that I think about it.

I took a northbound Highlander on 2 Jan 2020. That was a very empty train, although i suspect the route heading south after New Year was busy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2021 ==

I would treat supplements and the lower-priced advances as the same pool of beds and open them up about a week prior to the departure date. By that time the core tourist market will already have booked so you'll have a decent idea of how full the train is likely to be.

Got to factor in the risk that passengers delay hoping to get a cheaper ticket so you are cannibalising your own full price income.

I tend to agree with the comment from najaB. The majority of tourist passengers or those using it as a one off occasion will have planned their trip in advance and booked accordingly. Last minute tickets would tend to go, in my opinion, to people seizing the opportunity of the cheaper fare to go home for the weekend or visit friends / relatives.

 

[185143]

Going back a few years to before the new stock came in, but I once had the indignity of being forced to split a carriage between myself and two other passengers one February*!

That was an outlier, but I suspect the loadings won't be significantly higher now than they were then.

*Edit: Might have been in January now that I think about it.

When the Highlander got cancelled on me in February 2019 (wow... doesn't feel that long ago!) We were all accommodated on the Lowlander. I boarded the Edinburgh seats at Preston and there were two empty seats. I heard mention that some people in rooms to Aberdeen (I think) had been sent on the Glasgow portion, but the vast majority were accommodated on the Edinburgh portion for Inverness and Aberdeen. So neither trains can have been very busy!

I'm on the Southbound Fort William in the seats tomorrow night, what catering is available to the plebs in the seats these days? Assuming they load anything/have enough staff to serve it that is...

 

[Alex27]

How reliable is the Fort William portion generally? I'll be going up to do the jacobite in a couple of weeks and will have about quarter of an hour in Fort William between trains, so hoping the sleeper is on time

 

[185143]

How reliable is the Fort William portion generally? I'll be going up to do the jacobite in a couple of weeks and will have about quarter of an hour in Fort William between trains, so hoping the sleeper is on time

It seems to be the more reliable of the three. Although with the single line sections it seems to be a case of "when it goes tits up... it really does go tits up". I doubt I'd have the balls to make that connection personally!

 

[Alex27]

It seems to be the more reliable of the three. Although with the single line sections it seems to be a case of "when it goes tits up... it really does go tits up". I doubt I'd have the balls to make that connection personally!

Uh oh I wonder if west coast railways would hold the jacobite for a minute or two if the sleeper was slightly late, I assume not but then I think they have a decent amount of slack built in so you never know

 

[_toommm_]

Uh oh I wonder if west coast railways would hold the jacobite for a minute or two if the sleeper was slightly late, I assume not but then I think they have a decent amount of slack built in so you never know

I very much doubt it:

FAQs

FAQs

westcoastrailways.co.uk

For The Jacobite, most travellers use the Caledonian Sleeper train, details can be found at www.sleeper.scot although this is a connecting train, if it is delayed then the Jacobite will be unable to wait for its arrival.

 

[Alex27]

I very much doubt it:

FAQs

FAQs

westcoastrailways.co.uk

Ah well, fingers crossed it'll be fine then

 

[MrEd]

How reliable is the Fort William portion generally? I'll be going up to do the jacobite in a couple of weeks and will have about quarter of an hour in Fort William between trains, so hoping the sleeper is on time

It’s generally reliable but when something goes wrong, it goes very, very wrong. On Saturday 23 July (the day of the overhead wire problems in Edinburgh), the Fort William portion finally arrived at its destination 4 hours 50 minutes late at 14.45. I felt sorry for the poor on-board crew, some of whom had been on duty since 7pm the previous evening, and also for those passengers trying to reach more remote areas (who had missed buses/connecting trains and faced either a long wait or a *very* expensive taxi journey).

Fingers crossed it’s on time for you.

 

[CW2]

I've missed that connection 3 times in the past. The Jacobite is never held as there is usually a train full of punters waiting to depart on time without delaying their trip for another 1 or 2 off the sleeper.
If you are staying in the area then doing the afternoon train is the better option.
(My usual move is sleeper to Fort Bill, morning Jacobite, bus Fort Bill to Inverness, sleeper back from Inverness. But that's just me being desperate!)

 

[185143]

I've missed that connection 3 times in the past. The Jacobite is never held as there is usually a train full of punters waiting to depart on time without delaying their trip for another 1 or 2 off the sleeper.
If you are staying in the area then doing the afternoon train is the better option.
(My usual move is sleeper to Fort Bill, morning Jacobite, bus Fort Bill to Inverness, sleeper back from Inverness. But that's just me being desperate!)

Do they let you on the afternoon one if the Sleeper is late?

 

[CW2]

Do they let you on the afternoon one if the Sleeper is late?

I've usually been "Pay on the Day" in any case. If you do miss the morning connection you can buy a single to Mallaig then catch the return working of the steam. One thing you can't do is out and back to Glenfinnan in the afternoon.
As I said, if you're staying overnight at Fort Bill then book the afternoon train. If you should happen to make the morning connection then you could ask nicely if there is any space to spare.

 

[185143]

I've usually been "Pay on the Day" in any case. If you do miss the morning connection you can buy a single to Mallaig then catch the return working of the steam. One thing you can't do is out and back to Glenfinnan in the afternoon.
As I said, if you're staying overnight at Fort Bill then book the afternoon train. If you should happen to make the morning connection then you could ask nicely if there is any space to spare.

I've got a voucher to use, hence wondering. It'd be nice to be able to bail the sleeper and carry on immediately via steam to Mallaig that's for sure!

 

[jfollows]

How reliable is the Fort William portion generally? I'll be going up to do the jacobite in a couple of weeks and will have about quarter of an hour in Fort William between trains, so hoping the sleeper is on time

It is now some years since I did this, so nothing to do with the current service, but on the one time that I missed the Jacobite at Fort William I was able to take a taxi to Glenfinnan to catch up with it. Not perfect, but it meant that my holiday plans weren't significantly ruined.

EDIT My wording was vague, I've made the connection at Fort William once and I've had to take a taxi once.