Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

This isn’t staffing shortage caused by incompetence it’s the effects of a global pandemic. Lots of posts saying ‘this wouldn’t happen at at hotel’ etc but in a away it is. There needs to be some perspective.

No, there doesn't.

CS has a known staffing issue and has had for weeks. We know this as it's well-documented on this thread. Yet they are only sending out warnings of this on the day, too late to replan.

If I received an email from CS say 2 weeks in advance (and the issue has been known for that long) warning that this was possible or likely, I'd take the refund and find a day-train Advance and a hotel.

It isn't about the shortages, that is indeed not their fault, it's about communication and quality customer service as one would expect from a premium hotel - the marketing is not Travelodge or Premier Inn, it sets expectations of at least Marriott levels of quality and service. I would certainly expect that sort of poor service from Travelodge, but that is not the market they are operating in.

You'll note I am saying that my view is that they should just cancel the Aberdeen entirely for a month or so, and rolling forward if changes to the law on isolation don't look to be resolving the matter. They could reduce the numbers potentially left "high and dry" by offering a quality package for cancelling, e.g. "we will both give you a refund and First Class travel on LNER", which some would choose, leaving fewer residual passengers to deal with. It's better to be able to plan than to have problems at the last minute - Avanti, for instance, have recognised this (though things are so bad for them that removing service entirely might have to happen).

Many hotels across the country are having to shut due to ‘pingdemic’ and at the very last minute cancel your booking, some on the day of arrival. Yes you get a full refund but are left with nowhere to stay (and in a popular location there may well be no other accommodation).

If hotels who have a known staffing issue are not giving advance warning of the possibility of disruption if they think it might happen (i.e. they are right down on minimum staffing) and offering the option to cancel in advance, they too are providing poor customer service.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Many hotels across the country are having to shut due to ‘pingdemic’ and at the very last minute cancel your booking, some on the day of arrival. Yes you get a full refund but are left with nowhere to stay (and in a popular location there may well be no other accommodation).

I stay in hotels a lot as I work on site all over Europe.

As a critical worker, I have continued to work throughout the pandemic. To date I have not had one single hotel booking altered or cancelled.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I stay in hotels a lot as I work on site all over Europe.

As a critical worker, I have continued to work throughout the pandemic. To date I have not had one single hotel booking altered or cancelled.

Its mostly happening in recent weeks in heavy tourist areas such as Devon and Cornwall.

 

[najaB]

Its mostly happening in recent weeks in heavy tourist areas such as Devon and Cornwall.

Largely because demand is surging at the same time that infection rates were climbing (though they have, fortunately, started to slow down again).

 

[route101]

Doubt it - Megabus Gold was cancelled over 4 years ago.

The coaches are still operating on Citylink routes in Scotland.

 

[InOban]

Largely because demand is surging at the same time that infection rates were climbing (though they have, fortunately, started to slow down again).

And because of the absence of the East Europeans who have provided most of the staff in recent years.

 

[JonathanH]

The coaches are still operating on Citylink routes in Scotland.

As we have gone off topic, I looked at the current tax status - of the 13 sleeper coaches, only one (50310) is currently stored off road. They aren't all in Scotland - I saw one in Norwich a few weeks ago in normal Megabus colours.

Back on topic, they aren't available for Caledonian Sleeper to charter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As we have gone off topic, I looked at the current tax status - of the 13 sleeper coaches, only one (50310) is currently stored off road. They aren't all in Scotland - I saw one in Norwich a few weeks ago in normal Megabus colours.

Back on topic, they aren't available for Caledonian Sleeper to charter.

Even if they were, once you've woken up at 4am and been faffed about you probably aren't going to go asleep again anyway.

 

[RT4038]

Although a bit off topic - the Megabus sleeper service was another hopeless economic case [in the same geographical market] made worse by the Marketing. Was it better than sitting up all night - most people would probably say yes. Was it luxurious - No. Did it compare with a hotel in any way? - No, possibly a downmarket hostel. However, the service required an average fare four times as much as the ordinary seated vehicle to break even (due to the high initial vehicle cost, increased running costs due to the sheer weight [of the convertible beds], lower capacity and the need for a double crew) . The concept seemed good, but customer expectation, and the competition, had moved on from the 70s unfortunately. Customers were simply not prepared to pay that kind of money for the additional comfort and service that could be practically given, but overhyped by marketing. Fairly similar to CS really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although a bit off topic - the Megabus sleeper service was another hopeless economic case [in the same geographical market] made worse by the Marketing. Was it better than sitting up all night - most people would probably say yes. Was it luxurious - No. Did it compare with a hotel in any way? - No, possibly a downmarket hostel. However, the service required an average fare four times as much as the ordinary seated vehicle to break even (due to the high initial vehicle cost, increased running costs due to the sheer weight [of the convertible beds], and the need for a double crew) . The concept seemed good, but customer expectation, and the competition, had moved on from the 70s unfortunately.

I used it once and actually slept fairly well - the longitudinal layout was better than the alternating blood to head and feet on a train with transverse beds. The problem is that the market isn't really there, mainly because people are typically either cash-rich and time-poor (in which case they'll mostly fly, or some will use the Sleeper or LNER First Class), or cash-poor and time-rich (in which case the cheapest option, a regular seated coach, is what they'll do).

 

[RT4038]

I used it once and actually slept fairly well - the longitudinal layout was better than the alternating blood to head and feet on a train with transverse beds. The problem is that the market isn't really there, mainly because people are typically either cash-rich and time-poor (in which case they'll mostly fly, or some will use the Sleeper or LNER First Class), or cash-poor and time-rich (in which case the cheapest option, a regular seated coach, is what they'll do).

Whilst those are the extremes, there are plenty of people falling in the middle with varying degrees of cash and time. Interestingly, an unusually large proportion of passengers only travelled once on the service; make of that what you will.

I also travelled on it and got a good night's sleep, contrary to my expectation. Indian Railways sleeping cars (2Ac) have some longitudinal berths , which give a good night's sleep too.

 

[najaB]

Was it better than sitting up all night - most people would probably say yes.

I used it once and had the worst night's attempted sleep ever. Never used it again. And that's as someone who used the Cally Sleeper fairly regularly.

 

[RT4038]

I used it once and had the worst night's attempted sleep ever. Never used it again. And that's as someone who used the Cally Sleeper fairly regularly.

However, the question is: was it better than sitting up all night in a seated megabus? I boarded the Sleeper coach at Dundee and got to sleep shortly after Edinburgh. When I awoke I thought we had probably got to Carlisle, but on looking out it was south of Huntingdon on the A1! Must have got some decent sleep. Bit strange going down Finchley Road lying in bed.

I've had some pretty terrible nights on the Caledonian Sleeper though, as well as good ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, the question is: was it better than sitting up all night in a seated megabus? I boarded the Sleeper coach at Dundee and got to sleep shortly after Edinburgh. When I awoke I thought we had probably got to Carlisle, but on looking out it was south of Huntingdon on the A1! Must have got some decent sleep. Bit strange going down Finchley Road lying in bed.

I've had some pretty terrible nights on the Caledonian Sleeper though, as well as good ones.

Was a bit odd for me, the night felt like a few sets of pulling off into the services in close succession (as that woke me up each time the drivers swapped) then we had arrived!

Second best sleep I've had on a vehicle (ignoring boats). The best was a DB Talgo longitudinal couchette.

 

[najaB]

However, the question is: was it better than sitting up all night in a seated megabus?

For me it was not. I chose the seated Megabus the next time, and then they were out of business!

 

[Butts]

For me it was not. I chose the seated Megabus the next time, and then they were out of business!

Was this still the time of "Bargain Berths" on the Sleeper ?

Perhaps with there lack of availability an opportunity to re enter the market ?

 

[najaB]

Was this still the time of "Bargain Berths" on the Sleeper ?

It wasn't, but it was when sleeper supplements weren't particularly expensive.

 

[RT4038]

Was this still the time of "Bargain Berths" on the Sleeper ?

Perhaps with there lack of availability an opportunity to re enter the market ?

I think the bus has already left on that possibility. The original vehicles are too old now to be reliably racking up that kind of mileage on sleeper service and it would be a very brave soul to invest in new bespoke rolling stock, particularly as the problem costs of running sleeper buses, and some of the concept issues disliked by customers, have not got any easier/better in the meantime.

 

[route101]

However, the question is: was it better than sitting up all night in a seated megabus? I boarded the Sleeper coach at Dundee and got to sleep shortly after Edinburgh. When I awoke I thought we had probably got to Carlisle, but on looking out it was south of Huntingdon on the A1! Must have got some decent sleep. Bit strange going down Finchley Road lying in bed.

I've had some pretty terrible nights on the Caledonian Sleeper though, as well as good ones.

I used the Megabus Sleeper back in 2012, the original bendy coach. I paid £1!

Felt every bump in the road. Interesting your coach went down the A1. Anyway this is off topic.

I felt strange lying in Glasgow Central in my PJ bottoms on the sleeper!

 

[Hearadh]

I hope the Scottish Sleeper management are Times readers. If they are they'll realise their columnist Max Hastings is catching the train this Thursday. See his Notebook today.

On a previous trip the engine caught fire 10 miles short of Inverness, so they opened the door, hopped down onto the track and hitched a lift from a nearby farmer! The following year his 10 year old son wanted to know if the train would catch fire again.

Which just goes to show how loyal Sleeper users are to the service, and how challenging it is operationally.

If that was back in BR days bet that was after the 47s had taken over the sleepers.

 

[haggishunter]

Will 'day' passengers be permitted in the Fort William seated coach with a further easing of Covid rules on Monday? It really is nonsensical when social distancing has been the mantra to effectively remove one of only 4 services between Crianlarich and Fort William, as well as reducing journey choice for locals it's reduced scope for using the WHL for outdoor activities.

 

[Horizon22]

And because of the absence of the East Europeans who have provided most of the staff in recent years.

Well indeed, some of the hospitality sector is actually a victim of Brexit as opposed to Covid, but some companies are trying to conveniently roll one into the other.

Anyway regardless of the route cause, in any railways planning or control prior notice is always far, far superior to ad-hoc cancellations. This is what CS need to be doing and adequately setting expectations instead of spinning the wheel on the night.

 

[Bill57p9]

Will 'day' passengers be permitted in the Fort William seated coach with a further easing of Covid rules on Monday? It really is nonsensical when social distancing has been the mantra to effectively remove one of only 4 services between Crianlarich and Fort William, as well as reducing journey choice for locals it's reduced scope for using the WHL for outdoor activities.

Same goes for the lounge club car, and Newtonmore through to Inverness.
Though CS will probably find another excuse not to reintroduce them. Short notice staff sickness to withhold the service for several months maybe?

 

[JonathanH]

Will 'day' passengers be permitted in the Fort William seated coach with a further easing of Covid rules on Monday? It really is nonsensical when social distancing has been the mantra to effectively remove one of only 4 services between Crianlarich and Fort William, as well as reducing journey choice for locals it's reduced scope for using the WHL for outdoor activities.

There is nothing on the website or booking facilities to indicate that the ability to use the Caledonian Sleeper as a day train is returning or that they will offer more than eleven seats in the seated coach overnight.

 

[Bill57p9]

I just had a look on RTT and the Fort William portion is loaded as not taking intermediate passengers until the end of the current timetable (12 Dec). Although obviously this could be varied, it does suggest little intent to change.

 

[najaB]

I just had a look on RTT and the Fort William portion is loaded as not taking intermediate passengers until the end of the current timetable (12 Dec). Although obviously this could be varied, it does suggest little intent to change.

Well, it's easier to add seats and stops in than it is to take them out.

 

[Butts]

Same goes for the lounge club car, and Newtonmore through to Inverness.
Though CS will probably find another excuse not to reintroduce them. Short notice staff sickness to withhold the service for several months maybe?

Self-Service with an honesty box ?

 

[BRX]

Will 'day' passengers be permitted in the Fort William seated coach with a further easing of Covid rules on Monday? It really is nonsensical when social distancing has been the mantra to effectively remove one of only 4 services between Crianlarich and Fort William, as well as reducing journey choice for locals it's reduced scope for using the WHL for outdoor activities.

This must be some extent down to transport Scotland to decide/dictate - because presumably it's part of what the franchise is contracted to provide? If CS are resisting resuming day passengers then I think it's the sort of thing that people should be asking their MSPs about.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I had an ex Megabus Gold, Sleeper coach, a couple years back, from Bristol to Cardiff, , which then went on to form a Cardiff-Bristol-Heayjrow and Gatwick service, i do not know if they are still doing this service or not,

I regularly used to see the Megabus Gold coaches on the London to/from Cardiff route. That was probably until about 3 years ago. I used them sometimes and was told the coaches were used for short returns to and from Cardiff during the daytime before they set forth overnight to Scotland again.

I've often said that I judge a company not on whether something went wrong or not (within reason), but how they deal with things when they do go wrong, because they inevitably will at some point.

CS appear to be grossly failing this test at present.

Well indeed, some of the hospitality sector is actually a victim of Brexit as opposed to Covid, but some companies are trying to conveniently roll one into the other.

Anyway regardless of the route cause, in any railways planning or control prior notice is always far, far superior to ad-hoc cancellations. This is what CS need to be doing and adequately setting expectations instead of spinning the wheel on the night.

That has always been my gripe. I can accept things go wrong but passengers deserve more information. I do get cynical when the same things go wrong regularly.

 

[XAM2175]

There is nothing on the website or booking facilities to indicate that the ability to use the Caledonian Sleeper as a day train is returning or that they will offer more than eleven seats in the seated coach overnight.

I just had a look on RTT and the Fort William portion is loaded as not taking intermediate passengers until the end of the current timetable (12 Dec). Although obviously this could be varied, it does suggest little intent to change.

Did they not respond to an inquiry a week or two ago that they would be reviewing the decision following the announcement this morning? If that's the case then we might hear more in the next few days.