Caledonian Sleeper

[D6130]

By the time they'd concluded that, the CS contract was already signed.

Is there an option to terminate the contract early?.....and in extremis could they just default and pay the appropriate penalty (or not, as the case may be)?

 

[Journeyman]

Is there an option to terminate the contract early?.....and in extremis could they just default and pay the appropriate penalty (or not, as the case may be)?

I believe there's break points, yes, and there may be one next year sometime (7.5 years, halfway through the original 15 years). I reckon Serco will happily walk away.

 

[Grumpy Git]

It sounds like Fawlty Towers on rail.

What a pathetic attempt at running a service.

 

[Journeyman]

It sounds like Fawlty Towers on rail.

What a pathetic attempt at running a service.

In their defence, and I know this from experience, the management team work bloody hard and have often gone to extraordinary lengths to keep things going. I suspect a lot of this is out of their control at the moment, for one reason or another.

 

[Falcon1200]

In their defence, and I know this from experience, the management team work bloody hard and have often gone to extraordinary lengths to keep things going. I suspect a lot of this is out of their control at the moment, for one reason or another.

I agree, and I know from experience how difficult running the sleeper service is, whether by Scotrail as before or Serco now, but the current problems give me serious concern for the future of the operation. And while many things, especially infrastructure failures of course, are indeed beyond their control, others such as not telling passengers until they board about the lack of catering are quite frankly pathetic.

 

[Bald Rick]

It sounds like Fawlty Towers on rail.

What a pathetic attempt at running a service.

Have you used it?

 

[STINT47]

I remember travelling on the low lander from Glasgow back in first days and really enjoying it.

I had a light snack and drink at Glasgow in the lounge car before departure Went to bed and fell asleep just after departure and was wojen up with breakfast to find the train was sitting in Euston. No rush to get off I was advised by the steward we ate early so you can take my time.

Reading all the comments about people strugiling to sleep on the new stock, no catering and being g turned off as soon as you arrive to Euston even if running early it sounds like the service has got worse.

If you add in the higher prices I have to conclude that as much as I would like to use the sleeper agai it's just not worth my money or an enjoyable way to travel anymore. What a shame

 

[najaB]

I remember travelling on the low lander from Glasgow back in first days and really enjoying it.

In my last job I frequently had to travel down to London or points south and would always get the sleeper if possible. Even into the days of Serco with the Mk3s it was my preferred method of travel.

Like yourself, the reports in this thread mean that it would be my last choice these days rather than my first. Day train and Travelodge or similar sounds like the superior option.

 

[option]

Food + bar/lounge + beds = hotel

I could see a/the problem being that Serco, nor ScotRail, operate hotels or catering of the level required.

It may be better to have the rail operations done by a rail operator, & the hospitality/customer service contracted to a hotel or food services company, like Sodexo.

 

[Darandio]

Have you used it?

If they haven't then I assume you believe they shouldn't have an opinion on it?

There are countless reports on this forum of how poor the service has been, there are countless reports elsewhere which say exactly the same. Much of it was pre-Covid as well, there's no hiding behind that. They can't all be incorrect.

 

[najaB]

They can't all be incorrect.

Indeed, they can't. They are, however, posted by people who might have particular biases. First hand experience is always best.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, they can't. They are, however, posted by people who might have particular biases. First hand experience is always best.

Expectations also vary. Some people (I guess yourself) are accepting of it being a bit rough and ready. I was in ScotRail days as the price and promotion was appropriate to that - basically a youth hostel on wheels - and that's how the likes of OeBB NightJet are pitched too. But if you pitch yourself as a premium experience, I expect, and have the right to expect, as a bare minimum the quality of experience you get in a 4* business hotel such as a Marriott or "classic" Hilton or Holiday Inn (not Doubletree or Express) - for all I like Premier Inn, you'd need to shave a fair whack off the prices for that to be the comparison. And that is sorely lacking.

I would be expecting pretty decent compensation for no food being served on the premises at that sort of hotel, for example, and to be notified as far in advance as possible, not just on arrival.

Or just be reasonable, knock maybe 40% off the prices and pitch it as a Premier Inn on rails, more like the Night Riviera, and everybody (bar the bean-counters) will be happy.

 

[MrEd]

It sounds like Fawlty Towers on rail.

What a pathetic attempt at running a service.

This really is not CS’ finest hour. I think that a combination of the overtime ban and staff self-isolation has hit them hard. I am drawn increasingly to the conclusion that management don’t seem to care much at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, and I know from experience how difficult running the sleeper service is, whether by Scotrail as before or Serco now, but the current problems give me serious concern for the future of the operation. And while many things, especially infrastructure failures of course, are indeed beyond their control, others such as not telling passengers until they board about the lack of catering are quite frankly pathetic.

The thing is that how difficult it is to run is the operator's problem, not the passenger's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2021 ==

This really is not CS’ finest hour.

I'm not sure they have had a finest hour since they took over from ScotRail, to be honest. It's been problem after problem.

 

[MrEd]

They seem to be getting out of the luxury rail business anyway - haven't they just flogged the Ghan and Overland off?

I'd imagine nationalisation (to Scotland) would be quite a popular move.

The end of Serco cannot come soon enough, especially given the constant industrial disputes. I’m not sure whether a nationalised operator would be much better but they certainly would be no worse.

I can imagine that a nationalised operator would initially focus on getting the basics (such as communication) right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2021 ==

The thing is that how difficult it is to run is the operator's problem, not the passenger's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2021 ==



I'm not sure they have had a finest hour since they took over from ScotRail, to be honest. It's been problem after problem.

I agree with you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Food + bar/lounge + beds = hotel

I could see a/the problem being that Serco, nor ScotRail, operate hotels or catering of the level required.

It may be better to have the rail operations done by a rail operator, & the hospitality/customer service contracted to a hotel or food services company, like Sodexo.

Interesting you mention that, as that's been the default method of operation in mainland Europe for many years, though less so now. Typically the train and seated coaches were operated by the "TOC", while Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits, Mitropa etc would run the restaurant and individual sleeping and couchette coaches. Indeed, that started right back in Pullman days.

On the other hand, I'd not touch Sodexo with a ten-foot pole. You need a genuine quality hospitality operator involved, not an outsourcer whose premise is basically to run staff canteens on the cheap.

 

[JonathanH]

The end of Serco cannot come soon enough, especially given the constant industrial disputes. I’m not sure whether a nationalised operator would be much better but they certainly would be no worse.

It almost certainly wouldn't be better. Serco are simply running this on behalf of Transport Scotland - where is the money for higher pay going to come from? It is a relatively small operation. What change in personnel is going to lead to substantial changes?

It may be better to have the rail operations done by a rail operator, & the hospitality/customer service contracted to a hotel or food services company, like Sodexo.

Movement of the train (ie rail operations) is already contracted out to GBRf. Maintenance of the train is contracted out to Alstom. The hospitality / customer service is the bit that Caledonian Sleeper already do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It almost certainly wouldn't be better. Serco are simply running this on behalf of Transport Scotland - where is the money for higher pay going to come from? It is a relatively small operation. What change in personnel is going to lead to substantial changes?

Merging it back into ScotRail would allow for considerable cost savings, e.g. it wouldn't need its own customer service team.

 

[35B]

The end of Serco cannot come soon enough, especially given the constant industrial disputes. I’m not sure whether a nationalised operator would be much better but they certainly would be no worse.

I can imagine that a nationalised operator would initially focus on getting the basics (such as communication) right.

Merging it back into ScotRail would allow for considerable cost savings, e.g. it wouldn't need its own customer service team.

The phrase "look before you leap" comes to mind. Nationalised businesses have a very mixed record on getting the basics right, while merging CS with Scotrail would allow the efficiency of a joined service team but risk losing focus on the sleeper operation in amongst all the other stuff that CS have to deal with. Even with TS calling the shots and Serco in day to day charge, I'd be hesitant about concluding that nationalisation would in and of itself lead to the problems being fixed.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The hospitality / customer service is the bit that Caledonian Sleeper already do.

....... or don't do in this case.

It sounds like a case of some manager(s) at Serco thinking they could make an easy fortune, suddenly realising they've dropped a particularly "large one" and are now cutting everything to the bone in order to cut their losses?

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that they can't get their required food supplies because they owe their supplier some dosh? As someone with almost 30 years experience of running their own business, you wouldn't believe some of the excuses for why the "cheque is (still) in the post".

 

[Journeyman]

....... or don't do in this case.

It sounds like a case of some manager(s) at Serco thinking they could make an easy fortune, suddenly realising they've dropped a particularly "large one" and are now cutting everything to the bone in order to cut their losses?

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that they can't get their required food supplies because they owe their supplier some dosh? As someone with almost 30 years experience of running their own business, you wouldn't believe some of the excuses for why the "cheque is (still) in the post".

Having worked there myself, and seen the operation up close, I can assure you that you're very wide of the mark there.

 

[Meerkat]

What’s the reason for there being no food?
Even If there is no microwave available is there really not space on the train (or at the terminals) to keep a big box of drinks and half decent snacks with a good shelf life, so they could at least show some willing?
A decent organisation would have someone on site with a company credit card and the authority to go to the nearest 24hr shop and load up.
When I once had a flight fogged off and had to get a coach transfer to the airport the plane had got in to they gave everyone a carrier bag with drinks/crisps/chocolate. And that was EasyJet, not someone pretending to be a luxury service.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Having worked there myself, and seen the operation up close, I can assure you that you're very wide of the mark there.

Well that is good to hear, if for no other reason that CS staff's job are safe and suppliers are getting paid.

It does beg the question though as to why passengers are only being told there is no food a few minutes before boarding. That really is unforgivable and downright shameful. It's not a bloody commuter train after all.

 

[andbrads]

Well that is good to hear, if for no other reason that CS staff's job are safe and suppliers are getting paid.

It does beg the question though as to why passengers are only being told there is no food a few minutes before boarding. That really is unforgivable and downright shameful.

Following the strike and ongoing IR disputes, could this be some low-level protest? It's been established on here that CS staff don't like working the dining car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well that is good to hear, if for no other reason that CS staff's job are safe and suppliers are getting paid.

It does beg the question though as to why passengers are only being told there is no food a few minutes before boarding. That really is unforgivable and downright shameful. It's not a bloody commuter train after all.

Even if it was a regular day train it is good practice and good customer service to show "no buffet service" on the PIS if that is known to be the case.

 

[Grumpy Git]

............................... It's been established on here that CS staff don't like working the dining car.

That sounds like employing a telephonist who doesn't like answering the 'phone?

 

[HST274]

To advertise food and not have ANY on such a long journey is utterly unacceptable

I personally will stock up well on snacks when it comes to my trip later next month. I guess no chance of the club car opening be then?

 

[JonathanH]

decent organisation would have someone on site with a company credit card and the authority to go to the nearest 24hr shop and load up.

And that was EasyJet, not someone pretending to be a luxury service.

It is a question of scale though isn't it. Easyjet is much more able to do what you suggest What is the turnover of Easyjet relative to Caledonian Sleeper?

Do you really think someone could go to Sainsburys at Euston and buy random goods for resale or distribution on the train?

It does beg the question though as to why passengers are only being told there is no food a few minutes before boarding. That really is unforgivable and downright shameful.

How do you propose they are told?

 

[Journeyman]

Well that is good to hear, if for no other reason that CS staff's job are safe and suppliers are getting paid.

It does beg the question though as to why passengers are only being told there is no food a few minutes before boarding. That really is unforgivable and downright shameful. It's not a bloody commuter train after all.

I can only assume that up until that point there were staff frantically trying to resolve the problem, and I've seen them go to lengths such as emptying the shelves of supermarkets in Inverness and Fort William when supplies have been disrupted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2021 ==

Do you really think someone could go to Sainsburys at Euston and buy random goods for resale or distribution on the train?

CS have actually done that on occasion.

 

[Grumpy Git]

How do you propose they are told?

Based on what a passenger said of a recent experience upthread (this week), they were in the Euston Lounge for ages before they were called to the platform.