Caledonian Sleeper

[Dave W]

Whether or not they do, they can claim it back as rail fares are VAT-exempt.

Sorry, just for clarity, this isn’t correct.

Costs incurred in the course of making sales which are exempt from VAT aren’t claimable.

Costs incurred in the course of making sales which are taxable at the zero rate are indeed claimable. This includes rail fares.

As boring a distinction as it might be, there is definitely a difference between sales which are exempt from VAT and those which are taxable at the zero rate.

 

[Cantab26]

Sorry, just for clarity, this isn’t correct.

Costs incurred in the course of making sales which are exempt from VAT aren’t claimable.

Costs incurred in the course of making sales which are taxable at the zero rate are indeed claimable. This includes rail fares.

As boring a distinction as it might be, there is definitely a difference between sales which are exempt from VAT and those which are taxable at the zero rate.

Not forgetting activities that are out of scope of VAT as well.

 

[williamn]

I think all the talk of CS only being used by tourists is over the top. I use it to regularly travel for work to Scotland. My Scottish colleagues have used it recently for both work and leisure trips to London. It fulfills a useful purpose at least until HS2 arrives.

 

[Essexman]

I use it for work. I was talking to member of staff in CS Guest Centre at Inverness recently and they told me quite a few business people use it.

 

[MrEd]

I use it for work. I was talking to member of staff in CS Guest Centre at Inverness recently and they told me quite a few business people use it.

This sounds entirely accurate. I can’t imagine that the Glasgow or Aberdeen portions see a great deal of tourist traffic (not that they’re too well patronised these days).

 

[paul1609]

This sounds entirely accurate. I can’t imagine that the Glasgow or Aberdeen portions see a great deal of tourist traffic (not that they’re too well patronised these days).

My experience over the last 25 years is the Fort William and Edinburgh portions are almost entirely tourist. I can't really remember many passengers heading to Aberdeen in the Northbound lounge car at all. Glasgow does have some business traffic Northbound on Thurs and Friday nights but the traffic has steadily declined since the improved frequencies of the wcml improvement. There are some passengers to the near Highlands who use the Glasgow portion for the later departure from London and to avoid really early arrivals at places like Stirling and Perth.

 

[MrEd]

My experience over the last 25 years is the Fort William and Edinburgh portions are almost entirely tourist. I can't really remember many passengers heading to Aberdeen in the Northbound lounge car at all. Glasgow does have some business traffic Northbound on Thurs and Friday nights but the traffic has steadily declined since the improved frequencies of the wcml improvement. There are some passengers to the near Highlands who use the Glasgow portion for the later departure from London and to avoid really early arrivals at places like Stirling and Perth.

You’re right- Aberdeen bound passengers are definitely in the minority in the northbound lounge car. It’s never a popular destination and these days there’s not even enough business to fill two sleeping cars some nights.

I get the impression that loadings are similarly poor on the Glasgow portion, especially midweek. The day train is probably quite an attractive option (and probably much cheaper) given the reduced journey times.

 

[Essexman]

I use them all for business except Fort William. Glasgow most often although I often add a bit to the trip and return on one of the Highlanders.
Fort William isn’t only tourists, it’s also used by people from that area travelling to London for various reasons, some leisure and some personal business rather than work busines.

 

[island]

Not providing suitable staff accommodation like the old stock was already an issue prior to covid and tied up with some of the industrial unrest, covid has just made the issue boil over.

But is the accommodation on the new stock unsuitable, or is it just the staff don't like it? Quite some time ago on this thread, it was pointed out that the old stock had pantries with full doors and lockable from the inside, and it was suggested that it was the habit of staff to retreat to said pantries to "read their manuals" once most of the passengers were asleep. This facility is no longer available on the new stock, but that does not necessarily make it unsuitable for staff to perform their assigned duties.

 

[paul1609]

I use them all for business except Fort William. Glasgow most often although I often add a bit to the trip and return on one of the Highlanders.
Fort William isn’t only tourists, it’s also used by people from that area travelling to London for various reasons, some leisure and some personal business rather than work busines.

I've travelled to Garelochhead for work intermittently over the last 25 years. You are right there are some people who travel from Fort William to London but the number is very small. Whilst the Fort William area is the second largest urban area in the highland region by population that's still only 10500. Fort William is only really remote these days in the eyes of romantic rail enthusiasts. It's only just over 2 hours by car to Glasgow Airport.

 

[al78]

Fort William is only really remote these days in the eyes of romantic rail enthusiasts. It's only just over 2 hours by car to Glasgow Airport.

Maybe in perfect conditions, more like two and a half to three hours in normal traffic. It is over 100 miles by the recommended Google Maps route (A82), you are not averaging over 50 mph on the whole route as a rule (i.e. not driving recklessly). The A82 along loch Lomond is slow going with tight blind bends and buses and lorries using the road means you have to drive with great care. There can also be congestion in places, on my recent bus trip we were caught in traffic on Rannoch Moor. Can't remember the last time I got stuck in a traffic jam in an unpopulated area.

 

[Journeyman]

But is the accommodation on the new stock unsuitable, or is it just the staff don't like it? Quite some time ago on this thread, it was pointed out that the old stock had pantries with full doors and lockable from the inside, and it was suggested that it was the habit of staff to retreat to said pantries to "read their manuals" once most of the passengers were asleep. This facility is no longer available on the new stock, but that does not necessarily make it unsuitable for staff to perform their assigned duties.

Yeah, it just makes it harder to skive...

 

[philosopher]

But is the accommodation on the new stock unsuitable, or is it just the staff don't like it? Quite some time ago on this thread, it was pointed out that the old stock had pantries with full doors and lockable from the inside, and it was suggested that it was the habit of staff to retreat to said pantries to "read their manuals" once most of the passengers were asleep. This facility is no longer available on the new stock, but that does not necessarily make it unsuitable for staff to perform their assigned duties.

Can one or two of the cabins be converted to provide staff rest space?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've travelled to Garelochhead for work intermittently over the last 25 years. You are right there are some people who travel from Fort William to London but the number is very small. Whilst the Fort William area is the second largest urban area in the highland region by population that's still only 10500. Fort William is only really remote these days in the eyes of romantic rail enthusiasts. It's only just over 2 hours by car to Glasgow Airport.

FW and Inverness do seem to be the busier ones, though, plus Edinburgh. I reckon HS2 will easily kill the latter off with a suitable early departure from both ends, so that leaves a potential single train with 2 portions and some stock to the GW to replace the Mk3s?

 

[Journeyman]

FW and Inverness do seem to be the busier ones, though, plus Edinburgh. I reckon HS2 will easily kill the latter off with a suitable early departure from both ends, so that leaves a potential single train with 2 portions and some stock to the GW to replace the Mk3s?

Even the launch of East Coast Trains in October provides earlier and later departures from London and Edinburgh...

 

[paul1609]

Maybe in perfect conditions, more like two and a half to three hours in normal traffic. It is over 100 miles by the recommended Google Maps route (A82), you are not averaging over 50 mph on the whole route as a rule (i.e. not driving recklessly). The A82 along loch Lomond is slow going with tight blind bends and buses and lorries using the road means you have to drive with great care. There can also be congestion in places, on my recent bus trip we were caught in traffic on Rannoch Moor. Can't remember the last time I got stuck in a traffic jam in an unpopulated area.

The Northbound Citylink services that serve the airport are scheduled 2 hr 50 mins from the airport terminal to Fort William bus station this includes a 5 min "fag" break at Tyndrum and 13 intermediate stops including Crianlarich Village which is bypassed. All forms of travel involve unplanned delays.

 

[miami]

Inverness airport is under 2 hours from Fort William. Business travelers from Inverness or Glasgow to London may well use it (in numbers tiny compared with flying and day trains), but shouldn't they be paying non-subsidised rates? It's not like the sleeper is the only choice, or the most popular, or the cheapest. Business travelers from Manchester to London pay excessive amounts to subsidise other parts of the network

 

[Bletchleyite]

Inverness airport is under 2 hours from Fort William. Business travelers from Inverness or Glasgow to London may well use it (in numbers tiny compared with flying and day trains), but shouldn't they be paying non-subsidised rates? It's not like the sleeper is the only choice, or the most popular, or the cheapest. Business travelers from Manchester to London pay excessive amounts to subsidise other parts of the network

Air travel is not to be encouraged.

 

[miami]

Air travel is not to be encouraged.

Why not if it means less CO2 being pumped into the air (because the subsidy is used to capture more carbon than the actual flights, or prevent carbon emissions elsewhere)

If instead of pumping £10m into transporting 50 commuters once a week from Inverness to London, you put them on a plane, generating 1000t of carbon, and instead spend that £10m on electrifying the GWML to Exeter, saving 4000t of carbon per year, then it's better to have the inverness commuters flying.

 

[paul1609]

FW and Inverness do seem to be the busier ones, though, plus Edinburgh. I reckon HS2 will easily kill the latter off with a suitable early departure from both ends, so that leaves a potential single train with 2 portions and some stock to the GW to replace the Mk3s?

I'm not convinced that Edinburgh will be that affected in normal times there is a big overnight tourist market for travel. Its a different experience and it avoids a nights accomodation which is expensive at both ends. I've seen the overnight London to Edinburgh national express service load 8 relief coaches before in the summer at Victoria and its not all the budget travellers you would expect.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Only 8? Try 10 on an August bank holiday a few years back. And I'm sorry but all the the fantasists on here that think HS2 is is ever going to even reach Scotland nevermind make a big impact when it does really need to get real. They can't even decide about building the next section to Manchester or Leeds yet, there's an awful lot of mileage between both of those locations and central Scotland.


The best we can hope for is the recast east coast mainline timetable as of next year which theoretically should get the end-to-end Edinburgh London journey time down to 4hrs on the fastest services and this requires a very small number of intermediate calls and a great deal of hoping that the entire job doesn't fall over as has been happening on this route for the last decade with the project Eureka timetable. Four passengers from Aberdeen and Inverness and various intermediate stops along the route this is going to be about as much use as a wet fart in a paper bag and the plane will still take the strain as well as the sleeper should it still by some miracle giving the number of negative comment is on here ear be running by then.

 

[miami]

Only 8? Try 10 on an August bank holiday a few years back. And I'm sorry but all the the fantasists on here that think HS2 is is ever going to even reach Scotland

Homepage - HS2

Discover HS2, the UK's high-speed rail network transforming travel across the nation. Stay updated with the latest news, project developments, and travel information. Learn how HS2 is creating jobs, boosting the economy, and reducing carbon emissions. Explore routes, schedules, and benefits today.

www.hs2.org.uk

Glasgow will be an integrated high speed station where passengers can catch HS2 trains and access the high speed network to the south.

Glasgow to London in 220 minutes. Edinburgh in 228 minutes. That's 3h40/48

In terms of shares of journey between Edinburgh/Glasgow and London, I'd be very surprised if the sleeper even reaches 5%, compared with the day-trains. Even with covid reduced schedules there's about 1000 flight seats a day between London and Edinburgh and similar from London to Glasgow, that's about 10 times the number of people that the sleeper can take. Add in hourly hs2 day trains of 500 seats from each city (albeit also picking up in the north west) and that's getting on for 100 times the sleeper capacity

There may be political reasons to keep pouring money into a service apparently designed for staff jollys and trainspotters to go on holiday, but closing the service won't affect many.

 

[Bald Rick]

And I'm sorry but all the the fantasists on here that think HS2 is is ever going to even reach Scotland nevermind make a big impact when it does really need to get real.

HS2 services have always been planned to serve Glasgow and Edinburgh, and they will do as soon as Phase 1 opens. With Phase 2 open, morning arrivals at either end before 0830, and evening departures around 2100 become possible. That will catch most of the Central belt market. (Assuming there still is a sleeper market to Glasgow by then).

HS2 infrastructure isn’t planned to get to either (yet), but that is a different thing.

 

[island]

Can one or two of the cabins be converted to provide staff rest space?

I may be missing something in which case apologies, but why should staff be sleeping during their duty? Of course they should get rest breaks, and I understand there is a break room for this purpose, but they are shift workers, and they need to sleep whilst they’re off shift. Certainly not whilst they’re supposed to be on call for passengers.

 

[JonathanH]

I may be missing something in which case apologies, but why should staff be sleeping during their duty? Of course they should get rest breaks, and I understand there is a break room for this purpose, but they are shift workers, and they need to sleep whilst they’re off shift. Certainly not whilst they’re supposed to be on call for passengers.

Someone working over a certain period of time is entitled to a break period, shift worker or not - https://www.gov.uk/rest-breaks-work

Rest breaks at work

Workers have the right to one uninterrupted 20 minute rest break during their working day, if they work more than 6 hours a day. This could be a tea or lunch break.

The break doesn’t have to be paid - it depends on their employment contract.

 

[philosopher]

I may be missing something in which case apologies, but why should staff be sleeping during their duty? Of course they should get rest breaks, and I understand there is a break room for this purpose, but they are shift workers, and they need to sleep whilst they’re off shift. Certainly not whilst they’re supposed to be on call for passengers.

The cabin could be converted to another rest area, with the beds replaced with seating.

 

[miami]

In roles with the public, it's difficult to take a break in a public area (as you may be interrupted).

That said, I don't see any reason that the lounge car couldn't be closed at 2AM for staff to have a break 5 hours into their shift (on the highland).

Is there really no small office or cubicle?

It looks like there in in the seating car

 

[Journeyman]

Someone working over a certain period of time is entitled to a break period, shift worker or not - https://www.gov.uk/rest-breaks-work

They are entitled to those.

 

[island]

Someone working over a certain period of time is entitled to a break period, shift worker or not - https://www.gov.uk/rest-breaks-work

Whilst I believe on-train staff are exempt from these rules, I have not at any point raised a concern about staff having rest breaks during working hours. I have just pointed out that there should not be an expectation that staff would be sleeping during their time on the train.

 

[6Z09]

Only 8? Try 10 on an August bank holiday a few years back. And I'm sorry but all the the fantasists on here that think HS2 is is ever going to even reach Scotland nevermind make a big impact when it does really need to get real. They can't even decide about building the next section to Manchester or Leeds yet, there's an awful lot of mileage between both of those locations and central Scotland.


The best we can hope for is the recast east coast mainline timetable as of next year which theoretically should get the end-to-end Edinburgh London journey time down to 4hrs on the fastest services and this requires a very small number of intermediate calls and a great deal of hoping that the entire job doesn't fall over as has been happening on this route for the last decade with the project Eureka timetable. Four passengers from Aberdeen and Inverness and various intermediate stops along the route this is going to be about as much use as a wet fart in a paper bag and the plane will still take the strain as well as the sleeper should it still by some miracle giving the number of negative comment is on here ear be running by then.

Absolutely spot on regarding HS2, never going to be any benefit to Scotland any time soon, if ever.