Caledonian Sleeper

[CW2]

I believe the southbound Highlander sleeper was timed at "90" mph in order to get a path between the morning southbound Pendolinos into Euston. (In fact the timing load for 90 mph was used, but extra half-minutes performance allowance {} added here and there to take account of the class 92's maximum speed being 87 mph = 140 kph). It wasn't (then) possible to path it at 80 mph in the up morning peak. With fewer services running now, and different stopping patterns, that may have changed.

 

[Scotrail84]

Under normal circumstances, the Sleeper never exceeds 80mph. It used to be permitted to go at 100mph on the WCML when running more than 20 minutes late, but the 92s can only do 87.5mph, so that doesn't happen any more.

I'm not sure what the Class 73/9's maximum speed is, because some were rebuilt from 73/0 locos which were originally 80mph, and some from 73/1s, which were 90mph.

The 73/9's max speed is 90mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2021 ==

I’m wondering how often the locos on the highland portion get fuelled or swapped about?

I’m on the Inverness to Euston service next Thursday (3rd) (back on the Monday) and wondered if it is still likely to be 66755 & 73967.

Also, I’ve noticed that on RTT when the sleeper departs Inverness it says “Starts planned at 125mph” is there any point on the HML that is passed for 125mph running - just curiosity, I couldn’t imagine attempting to sleep at 125mph down that line!

Other than the sections of the ECML and WCML South of Edinburgh and Glasgow, there is nowhere else in Scotland where line speed exceeds 100mph anywhere. To my knowledge anyway.

 

[Journeyman]

The 73/9's max speed is 90mph.

Thought so, but wasn't 100% sure.

Other than the sections of the ECML and WCML South of Edinburgh and Glasgow, there is nowhere else in Scotland where line speed exceeds 100mph anywhere. To my knowledge anyway.

I think you're right. It got discussed extensively in the threads about HSTs.

 

[JonathanH]

I’m wondering how often the locos on the highland portion get fuelled or swapped about?

I’m on the Inverness to Euston service next Thursday (3rd) (back on the Monday) and wondered if it is still likely to be 66755 & 73967.

Fuelling isn't relevant - they all go to Craigentinny each night rather than hanging around at Waverley. Maintenance might be a different matter.

It is difficult to predict continuation of 66+73 combinations as there is no reason to use them if there are sufficient 73s and they are working well.

66755 came off the Aberdeen route on Wednesday night having done Sunday southbound and round trips Monday to Wednesday to be replaced by two 73s. It wasn't used on Thursday but has just come off maintenance at Doncaster. Then it replaced 66743 on Inverness Friday and Saturday. 66743 appears to have joined 66746 on the Royal Scotsman Western trip which is why 66755 is on Inverness.

If 73967-73971 are all fit, you would imagine that Aberdeen and Fort William go back to one 73 each and Inverness a pair with one spare. With only 73966 out of action, continuing to use a 66 seems possible but not guaranteed.

I think it is a case of wait and see.

 

[Caleb2010]

Thanks for all your answers!
I know the 92s are 87 max but didn’t think the 73s would be much higher if at all, it just threw me seeing the Inverness to Edinburgh portion timed at 125mph!

think I’ll let it be a little surprise Thursday night then!

cheers again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, imagine how refreshing a completely truthful response would be: “We can’t stow the bunks as that would require extra staff. If we employed extra staff that would reduce our profit margin so that we would breach our loan covenants, meaning we would have to cancel services or shut down completely”

Have Serco Caledonian Sleeper ever made a profit? Last I heard (pre Covid) they were losing half a million quid a week...

 

[Journeyman]

Have Serco Caledonian Sleeper ever made a profit? Last I heard (pre Covid) they were losing half a million quid a week...

Yes, although it depends how you define it. They've made profits when you factor in the subsidies, but like you say, they've also had a lot of expenses they didn't foresee, so it hasn't made the money they were expecting at all.

Oddly enough Serco won the franchise just before a major review was carried out within the company as a whole. They'll never bid for something this bespoke again. Serco's whole strategy now is low-risk, bog-standard outsourcing where simple, centralised models work effectively. CS is incredibly specialised and has some onerous requirements built into the franchise, like buying from Scottish SMEs for catering etc. Serco's normal catering model is bulk buying from cheap suppliers.

By the time this review was completed, Serco had already signed on the dotted line, and committed to provide something they'd already concluded didn't play to their strengths. It's not quite the same as transporting prisoners or running swimming pools...

 

[Scotrail84]

Yes, although it depends how you define it. They've made profits when you factor in the subsidies, but like you say, they've also had a lot of expenses they didn't foresee, so it hasn't made the money they were expecting at all.

Oddly enough Serco won the franchise just before a major review was carried out within the company as a whole. They'll never bid for something this bespoke again. Serco's whole strategy now is low-risk, bog-standard outsourcing where simple, centralised models work effectively. CS is incredibly specialised and has some onerous requirements built into the franchise, like buying from Scottish SMEs for catering etc. Serco's normal catering model is bulk buying from cheap suppliers.

By the time this review was completed, Serco had already signed on the dotted line, and committed to provide something they'd already concluded didn't play to their strengths. It's not quite the same as transporting prisoners or running swimming pools...

Maybe they'll give up the franchise next year then? Is that not when theres a break point? If it doesn't suit them then they'd be as well to walk away. Put it back under ScotRail.

 

[yorkie]

...it just threw me seeing the Inverness to Edinburgh portion timed at 125mph!

I would be careful drawing conclusions from timing loads

 

[Journeyman]

Maybe they'll give up the franchise next year then? Is that not when theres a break point? If it doesn't suit them then they'd be as well to walk away. Put it back under ScotRail.

Whether it goes back to ScotRail or not isn't their decision.

 

[Scotrail84]

Whether it goes back to ScotRail or not isn't their decision.

No, that would be down to the government or TS but it would be the sensible option.

 

[Butts]

No, that would be down to the government or TS but it would be the sensible option.

Some of us would like First back and the return of Bargain Berths.

 

[Scotrail84]

Some of us would like First back and the return of Bargain Berths.

Never happening unfortunately.

 

[43096]

I'm not sure what the Class 73/9's maximum speed is, because some were rebuilt from 73/0 locos which were originally 80mph, and some from 73/1s, which were 90mph.

The two ex-73/0 were just the bodyshells used, their bogies are taken from 'JB' series locos (presumably 73134 on stands at Brush is one, 73203 may be the other).

 

[PG]

Bit of an odd query given the time of year but here goes
- Is there anyway of getting a hot water bottle filled on board or at Waverley prior to the southbound Lowlander departing?

 

[Caleb2010]

I’ve known the hosts on the highland portion fill a hot water bottle for a passenger from the boiler in the lounge car - though it was the old stock, pre COVID and the staff were long servers!
There’s been a lot come and go since then!!

 

[221129]

Bit of an odd query given the time of year but here goes
- Is there anyway of getting a hot water bottle filled on board or at Waverley prior to the southbound Lowlander departing?

No chance at Waverley. Best bet would be on board but I'd be surprised if they did.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2021 ==

Strike action confirmed for Tuesday 15th June until Saturday 26th June 2021.

 

[PG]

No chance at Waverley. Best bet would be on board but I'd be surprised if they did.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2021 ==

Strike action confirmed for Tuesday 15th June until Saturday 26th June 2021.

Thanks to yourself and @Caleb2010 for your replies. It's for Mrs PG who's afflicted with a condition which is eased by a hot water bottle at night even in this weather!

Won't be affected by the strike action as travelling tonight. Any further details or is it a continuation of the staff's on-going dispute?

 

[BRX]

Strike action confirmed for Tuesday 15th June until Saturday 26th June 2021.

Ho hum. I'm booked to travel on the 25th. Do we know what the action is going to amount to?

 

[221129]

Ho hum. I'm booked to travel on the 25th. Do we know what the action is going to amount to?

What do you mean? If they're on strike then the trains are not going to run.

 

[JonathanH]

11 days in 365 days is 3% of the year. The staff therefore lose by not only having a pay freeze but also only get 97% of their pay for the year? Is it really worth it?

 

[221129]

11 days in 365 days is 3% of the year. The staff therefore lose by not only having a pay freeze but also only get 97% of their pay for the year? Is it really worth it?

They obviously think so.

 

[ungreat]

Forgive my possible ignorance but what is the obsession with this sleeper service?

 

[JonathanH]

Forgive my possible ignorance but what is the obsession with this sleeper service?

It can be a convenient way of getting from London to Scotland for some people and is of sufficient interest on the modern railway to fill 308 pages of comment.

 

[ungreat]

It can be a convenient way of getting from London to Scotland for some people and is of sufficient interest on the modern railway to fill 308 pages of comment.

The convenience of the service is not in doubt to myself but I do not understand the interest!

 

[221129]

The convenience of the service is not in doubt to myself but I do not understand the interest!

Probably because it is a unique service with a lot of unique aspects to it.

 

[deltic]

The convenience of the service is not in doubt to myself but I do not understand the interest!

Because it is a throw back to a different age when loco hauled services and portion working were a thing and Parliament used to sit late in the evening and MPs used it regulary to get back to their Scottish constituencies. The stories of Charles Kennedy drinking in the bar virtually all the way to Glasgow before retiring for a few hours while the train chugged on to Fort William are legendary. Despite virtually no-one using it and requiring a massive subsidy to maintain it , it still carries a lot of political weight.

 

[Highlandspring]

The convenience of the service is not in doubt to myself but I do not understand the interest!

I don’t understand the interest in football, yet for some reason it’s a multi-billion pound global phenomenon.

 

[deltic]

I don’t understand the interest in football, yet for some reason it’s a multi-billion pound global phenomenon.

Precisely, millions of people play and watch football - the numbers who use the sleepers are miniscule compared to virtually any other rail service. The interest in rail routes/services tends to be inverse proportion to those that use them. To take your analagy to far its like having a football forum where the interest in Anytown United in the 4th Division northern section of the southern Caithness league gets 10 times more discussion than any Premier league team.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think the point is that not everyone is interested in the exactly same thing even in a niche hobby like railways. There’s no need to ‘understand’ other people’s interests, just accept that they are inerested in something you’re not.