Caledonian Sleeper

[Norther Monkey]

I was on the final run to Aberdeen with a Mark 2 seated coach. Cold all night, and I didn't get any sleep.

At least I could open the droplight to fully appreciate the pair of 73s, and I've always found the sound of the brakes rather soothing.

Perhaps I don't remember the failings of the Mk2 aircon as vividly because the seat allowed me to sleep through it.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

To summarise some of the thoughts in previous posts, might a revised timetable look something like:

Highlander, 2 portions ex Euston, one to Inverness, and the other to Fort William via Glasgow Queen Street Low Level.
Lowlander, 2 portions ex Euston, whole train to Edinburgh, one portion forward to Aberdeen via Fife.

I'm tempted to play a tune or two on this... how about:
The Highlander runs to Glasgow Central instead of Edinburgh, and performs the split there. It could also detach/attach a couple of sleepers there, to give more sociable boarding / alighting times.
The Lowlander would have no need to run via Carstairs, so runs direct to Edinburgh arr circa 06:45. After dividing and loco change the Fife / Aberdeen portion could depart about 07:05, to arrive in Aberdeen about 09:45.

There are further tunes to be played when you take into account electrification through to Stirling.

I quite like the sound of this one. The Highlander not going via Edinburgh would of course take away the up direction only service Falkirk acquired by accident of geography when the Highlander was concentrated on Edinburgh - traditionally Falkirk was not on the Sleeper network (other than for the internal Edinburgh to Inverness), probably less of a loss than some of the places I list below which used to have a sleeper service.
The FW portion, having detached in Glasgow Central could take the most direct route via the curve at Rutherglen and the Argyle Line.

Another option might be for the same 'portion' to serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow, as servicing is at Polmadie, Edinburgh first then forward at 07.xx to Glasgow albeit with the potential problem of finding a path in the morning peak. Leaving stock in Edinburgh for later de-training would just create an additional ECS and associated resources.

I think part of the problem the current operator has is they inherited a 'one size fits all' service structure which has been in place for at least 25 years and when set up was trying to serve most (but not all) of the markets served my the more traditional sleeper network. Markets have clearly changed and a re-evaluation would appear prudent.

Whilst the Lowlander clearly targeted the Glasgow and Edinburgh 'cities' markets (traditionally the largest markets), at that time the function of the Highlander would have seen Aberdeen and Inverness as the most important markets to serve but at the expense of very early arrival times at Perth, Dundee and points south, some of which previously would have had a decent level of sleeper usage.
Aberdeen for example received three trains from Kings Cross the first arriving just before 07.00 clearly aimed at the Aberdeen market, the second arriving about an hour and a half later, just about tolerable for Dundee but OK for the stations northwards, and the third which only left Edinburgh around 07.00 (as a portion off a Kings X Edinburgh), ideal for Fife and Dundee. And of course from London these departures were spread over a three hour plus spread window, thus suiting many different needs.
Similarly Stirling and Perth were served by the Euston to Perth, much later than the Inverness service which, certainly northbound, as now was not attractively timed for Perth.
Other flows of course had been abandoned, and concentrating only around the border and northwards, not just Stranraer, but also such as Dunbar and Berwick, and Dumfries and Kilmarnock. Whilst some may doubt the volume for the latter two it must have been reasonably significant back in the day as one of the two sleeping car only Glasgow services took this route (and also took the Carlisle sleeping cars portion, much more civil than today's offering) as well as the mixed seats and sleepers Glasgow train. And of course the West Country (and for some years Poole) also had a Scottish sleeper although until the 70's that had not gone south of Birmingham.

 

[BRX]

Absolutely. Southbound isn't too bad as it's just after midnight and then you arrive into Euston shortly before 8am so it's possible to get a decent stretch of sleep. But northbound you're in a mess. Currently it calls at Glasgow at 0548 which is not really an ideal time to be getting of a train! So my question was more whether it would be considered to be worthwhile delaying by an hour or so (probably just wait more time at Edinburgh) meaning that you're calling around 0700 which is at least vaguely more reasonable. But it means delaying your arrival into Fort William close to 1100 and assumes that you can find a path up the West Highland line and that you don't cause problems at either Edinburgh or Glasgow by pottering around near the start of the morning peak! I don't know how to weigh those factors personally and I have no real argument one way or the other. My original post was just to point out that it would potentially be practical to ditch a separate Glasgow portion to and combine it with the existing Fort William, whether it would be a good idea is a different question!

I was actualy meaning the euston departure time rather than arrival time. The lowlander currently allows you to have dinner/meet someone in the evening in london and then hop on the train relatively late. Highlander departure time less so. On the other hand maybe some glasgow customers would appreciate a timing more suited to having dinner in the lounge car?

 

[gingerheid]

Convenience of departure time is where daytime services being faster than historically can really eat into the suitability of the lowland sleeper. You can almost catch daytime services after a working day and / or they can almost get you home at a godly hour (may involve a taxi, but then that'll probably not cost as much as a berth). There's probably going to be inconvenience involved, but it needs weighed against hanging around London for hours.

I'd love the option of being able to choose either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Convenience of departure time is where daytime services being faster than historically can really eat into the suitability of the lowland sleeper. You can almost catch daytime services after a working day and / or they can almost get you home at a godly hour (may involve a taxi, but then that'll probably not cost as much as a berth). There's probably going to be inconvenience involved, but it needs weighed against hanging around London for hours.

I'd love the option of being able to choose either!

Personally I find almost all of the pleasure of the Sleeper to be the lounge car, so I'd be more likely to use it with an earlier departure time than a later one.

 

[Ianno87]

It could well be. Unless it's able to detach vehicles that people can then stay in until a reasonable time, you've got the problem of arrival at godawful o'clock. The FW passes through Queen Street Low Level at about 05.30.

Absolutely. Southbound isn't too bad as it's just after midnight and then you arrive into Euston shortly before 8am so it's possible to get a decent stretch of sleep. But northbound you're in a mess. Currently it calls at Glasgow at 0548 which is not really an ideal time to be getting of a train! So my question was more whether it would be considered to be worthwhile delaying by an hour or so (probably just wait more time at Edinburgh) meaning that you're calling around 0700 which is at least vaguely more reasonable. But it means delaying your arrival into Fort William close to 1100 and assumes that you can find a path up the West Highland line and that you don't cause problems at either Edinburgh or Glasgow by pottering around near the start of the morning peak! I don't know how to weigh those factors personally and I have no real argument one way or the other. My original post was just to point out that it would potentially be practical to ditch a separate Glasgow portion to and combine it with the existing Fort William, whether it would be a good idea is a different question!

I was actualy meaning the euston departure time rather than arrival time. The lowlander currently allows you to have dinner/meet someone in the evening in london and then hop on the train relatively late. Highlander departure time less so. On the other hand maybe some glasgow customers would appreciate a timing more suited to having dinner in the lounge car?

Problem is if the Glasgow departure time is too early, there's little advantage getting it over getting the last Pendolino then a hotel.

An advantage of the current departure time is a full evening in London, or alternatively have a full evening at home and then travel (Even from Cambridge I could get my kids in bed and still have plenty of time to get to Euston)

 

[Bald Rick]

An advantage of the current departure time is a full evening in London, or alternatively have a full evening at home and then travel (Even from Cambridge I could get my kids in bed and still have plenty of time to get to Euston)

Yep last time I used it I left St Albans about 2230.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Did they? I found they were roasting hot at Euston, then freezing cold on the last bit to Fort Bill. The unique forced-air ventilation system just wasn't up to the job.

Whatever replaced them, the Mk2s had to go.

That was one of my main memories of the last the time I used the mk2 seated sleeper and along with a few other bits of disrepair in the carriage I decided I never would again, it wasn't worth saving the money for a not very pleasant journey.

 

[vlad]

I was actualy meaning the euston departure time rather than arrival time. The lowlander currently allows you to have dinner/meet someone in the evening in london and then hop on the train relatively late. Highlander departure time less so. On the other hand maybe some glasgow customers would appreciate a timing more suited to having dinner in the lounge car?

Then you need to guarantee that the lounge car will be open and have free seats, neither of which you can rely on.

 

[MrEd]

Personally I find almost all of the pleasure of the Sleeper to be the lounge car, so I'd be more likely to use it with an earlier departure time than a later one.

I used to think that with the old stock, but with the new stock (for whatever reason) it doesn’t seem quite as essential (for me). In the mornings it’s nice to have some picture windows to watch the scenery, granted. I think it’s a mixture of the fact that the new Mk5 berths are a much more pleasant place to be for a long period and the lounge cars somehow seem less cosy and inviting, though this is very much a personal preference and different passengers’ views may differ.

It might also be because we‘re very unlikely to see the lounge car return any time soon. If the domestic tourism market opens up this summer before rules on social distancing, alcohol on public transport (currently banned under Scottish law) and masks are lifted (as I imagine it will) and the trains become busy again, I wonder if CS might need to think about providing a basic in-room catering service, at least of sandwiches, cold drinks, snacks and a choice of breakfast options. This would not/could not be the full lounge car service but at least it would give passengers paying very expensive fares more of a semblance of customer service (if it is achievable). I don’t think delivery of hot food or drinks is an option as yet (deliveries need to be physically distanced and it is not safe to put hot food or drinks on the corridor floor) but some snacks and cold non-alcoholic drinks other than a breakfast in a bag might be nice.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Are you allowed to take (and consume) your own alcoholic beverages on board? Or is this banned as well?

 

[PG]

Are you allowed to take (and consume) your own alcoholic beverages on board? Or is this banned as well?

AFAIK it's not a dry train in the way that LNER departures from Aberdeen are on a Friday which ban carrying or consumption of alcohol, i.e. you can consume your own beverages in your room on CS.

 

[Chrism20]

I quite like the sound of this one. The Highlander not going via Edinburgh would of course take away the up direction only service Falkirk acquired by accident of geography when the Highlander was concentrated on Edinburgh - traditionally Falkirk was not on the Sleeper network (other than for the internal Edinburgh to Inverness), probably less of a loss than some of the places I list below which used to have a sleeper service.
The FW portion, having detached in Glasgow Central could take the most direct route via the curve at Rutherglen and the Argyle Line.

Split/attach the Edinburgh/Aberdeen portions at Mossend instead and add Falkirk onto the Aberdeen portion to maintain the call with a more passenger friendly arrival time northbound.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was one of my main memories of the last the time I used the mk2 seated sleeper and along with a few other bits of disrepair in the carriage I decided I never would again, it wasn't worth saving the money for a not very pleasant journey.

I did use it again, because my criteria were "it's cheap and it's not a road coach". Which I guess is going to be most of the market for overnight seated travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2021 ==

Are you allowed to take (and consume) your own alcoholic beverages on board? Or is this banned as well?

Yes, just not in the lounge car itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2021 ==

it is not safe to put hot food or drinks on the corridor floor

Railway over-H&S again. Deliveroo have been putting properly packed (in a lidded cup and inside a taped-closed bag) hot food and drink deliveries outside my front door with perfect success. Place item on floor, knock, stand back 2m, wait for it to be collected. If someone looks to be walking along such that they'll kick it over, tell them not to. Easy.

 

[Journeyman]

Railway over-H&S again. Deliveroo have been putting properly packed (in a lidded cup and inside a taped-closed bag) hot food and drink deliveries outside my front door with perfect success. Place item on floor, knock, stand back 2m, wait for it to be collected. If someone looks to be walking along such that they'll kick it over, tell them not to. Easy.

To be fair, your doorstep doesn't move at 80mph.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the MkV seated sleeper, how does it feel to those who have tried it?

I have tried it twice (back in 2019 and January 2020) on a Falkirk Grahamston - Crewe and being as I am a side sleeper, I found it very uncomfortable. The seats do not seem to have been designed for those who sleep on their side. I only had a couple of naps and not a proper sleep at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, your doorstep doesn't move at 80mph.

No, but it strikes me that the risk posed by this is lower than the risk of a passenger carrying such drinks back from the buffet on a Pendolino at 125, so suggesting it is unsafe is plain silly.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Then you need to guarantee that the lounge car will be open and have free seats, neither of which you can rely on.

Back in the Mk1 Sleeper era in the 70s the only way to get a drink on most sleeper services was from the limited supply in the small wooden box or crate - perhaps about 15" x 9" x 9" - which the Attendants carried with a small number of miniatures, mixers, small cans of beer and maybe the odd soft drink. Of course if these ran out there was always a chance the attendant might have some supplies in his overnight bag, these of course would not be accompanied by a receipt!

Only if travelling on The Night Limited or Night Caledonian was a 'Nightcap bar' provided in the train formation, a former Pullman car in the former and RMB in the latter.

A small number of trains conveyed a restaurant car for part of the journey serving dinner, and, in just two cases, breakfast.
The down Royal Highlander between London and Crewe and the up working between Inverness and Perth. Also on one of the down Aberdeen trains between Kings X and York, and two up trains between Aberdeen and Edinburgh although one of these was a Griddle Car with a more limited menu, plus breakfast north of Edinburgh on one of the down trains. Until 1978 there was a restaurant car between Glasgow and Fort William in both directions which was then reduced to a buffet car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding the MkV seated sleeper, how does it feel to those who have tried it?

I have tried it twice (back in 2019 and January 2020) on a Falkirk Grahamston - Crewe and being as I am a side sleeper, I found it very uncomfortable. The seats do not seem to have been designed for those who sleep on their side. I only had a couple of naps and not a proper sleep at all.

I am as well, I think that is why I slept better tucked up in a contorted position across two seats on the Riviera, despite these just being normal, basic, non reclining Standard seats, than I did on the Cally.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are you allowed to take (and consume) your own alcoholic beverages on board? Or is this banned as well?

If you’re in a berth, no one will know except you!

 

[221129]

I don’t think delivery of hot food or drinks is an option as yet (deliveries need to be physically distanced and it is not safe to put hot food or drinks on the corridor floor)

What nonsense. Afaik the serving of morning hot drinks never stopped?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2021 ==

Railway over-H&S again.

No. A false statement on the Internet again.

 

[BRX]

There were no hot drinks when I travelled late last summer. Supposedly due to these safety concerns, which seem nonsensical to me too.

 

[221129]

There were no hot drinks when I travelled late last summer. Supposedly due to these safety concerns, which seem nonsensical to me too.

I got my morning coffee both times in December and again this week.

 

[BRX]

I got my morning coffee both times in December and again this week.

Maybe they have different arrangements during periods where it's essential travel only and the train is less busy? But if the morning coffee is back, that's good news at least.

 

[Steve Harris]

To be fair, your doorstep doesn't move at 80mph.

And you can't actually stand back 2m as you would be outside with a OHLE stanchion coming at you pretty quick !!

I am sure something can be put in place to serve a hot drink though, IF enough effort and thought is put into it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2021 ==

Maybe they have different arrangements during periods where it's essential travel only and the train is less busy? But if the morning coffee is back, that's good news at least.

You have probably hit the nail on the head. A lot easier to leave a drink on the floor and knock a door and stand 2m to the side if the train isn't busy and no one else is in the corridor.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2021 ==

No, but it strikes me that the risk posed by this is lower than the risk of a passenger carrying such drinks back from the buffet on a Pendolino at 125, so suggesting it is unsafe is plain silly.

i think the risk is Covid rather than spilling it on your new shoes.

 

[6Z09]

What nonsense. Afaik the serving of morning hot drinks never stopped?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2021 ==


No. A false statement on the Internet again.

There were no hot drinks being served at all for several weeks, although I understand they have resumed hot drinks with the breakfast delivery to Berths recently.

 

[nlogax]

There were no hot drinks being served at all for several weeks, although I understand they have resumed hot drinks with the breakfast delivery to Berths recently.

Coffee, juice and a muffin to my berth yesterday. All was well.

 

[47271]

Are you allowed to take (and consume) your own alcoholic beverages on board? Or is this banned as well?

I was speed reading to catch up on the thread a moment ago and initially admired your inventiveness when I thought your question here was:

'Are you allowed to MAKE (and consume) your own alcoholic beverages on board? Or is this banned as well?'

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was speed reading to catch up on the thread a moment ago and initially admired your inventiveness when I thought your question here was:

'Are you allowed to MAKE (and consume) your own alcoholic beverages on board? Or is this banned as well?'

Prize for the first person with a photo of a homebrew kit set up in a Sleeper room

 

[nlogax]

Prize for the first person with a photo of a homebrew kit set up in a Sleeper room

Pfft.. copper gin still, surely!?