Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

They normally get deep cleaned after every flight so not so much.

Excuse me while I have a giggle - not by any sensible definition of "deep clean".

 

[221129]

Excuse me while I have a giggle - not by any sensible definition of "deep clean".

Fair enough, they definitely tend to be fogged after each return flight though.

 

[Hadders]

Presumably the berths on the sleeper have to be 'deep cleaned' or 'fogged' after every journey. Is there any reason why the seated coach can't be similarly 'deep cleaned' or 'fogged'?

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably the berths on the sleeper have to be 'deep cleaned' or 'fogged' after every journey. Is there any reason why the seated coach can't be similarly 'deep cleaned' or 'fogged'?

I don't think a deep clean is the issue - firstly, I don't think you can have people sleeping wearing a face mask due to the risk of suffocation and secondly, the staff need a safe space away from the passengers - therefore the seats can't be made available to passengers.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

As I'm moving to Aberdeenshire next month and the sleeper is a planned move for business trips to London, I hope it comes back!

 

[BRX]

It happens a lot more than you think.

Under what circumstances?

 

[221129]

Under what circumstances?

Normally if a member of crew test positive then every messroom and unit they had used in the previous 72hours will be taken out of use and deep cleaned.

 

[185143]

I don't think a deep clean is the issue - firstly, I don't think you can have people sleeping wearing a face mask due to the risk of suffocation and secondly, the staff need a safe space away from the passengers - therefore the seats can't be made available to passengers.

Might want to tell airlines that then! And indeed GWR as the Night Riviera coaches have their standard "Wear a face covering" signage in them.

Few people seemed to be complying on the Sleeper though, nothing was said-not even from the Police officers who boarded at Exeter for something unrelated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think a deep clean is the issue - firstly, I don't think you can have people sleeping wearing a face mask due to the risk of suffocation and secondly, the staff need a safe space away from the passengers - therefore the seats can't be made available to passengers.

People sleep on planes all the time, yes, with masks on. It's practically de-rigeur on long haul.

A cloth face covering cannot suffocate you. They leak like nobody's business.

The staff could be allocated berths to rest in; it's not like it's full.

 

[Ianno87]

People sleep on planes all the time, yes, with masks on. It's practically de-rigeur on long haul.

Well, eye masks that is...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, eye masks that is...

Face masks at the moment too.

 

[Butts]

I don't think a deep clean is the issue - firstly, I don't think you can have people sleeping wearing a face mask due to the risk of suffocation and secondly, the staff need a safe space away from the passengers - therefore the seats can't be made available to passengers.

Where is the safe space for Staff on an Aircraft ?

They seem to be able to make seats available to passengers in close proximity to themselves why can't Rail staff do the same ?

 

[BRX]

Normally if a member of crew test positive then every messroom and unit they had used in the previous 72hours will be taken out of use and deep cleaned.

But this is in response to a staff member testing positive. Not passengers. Are units taken out of service as a result of passengers being thought to have been carrying the virus? Because the suggestion is that this is what would prompt the CS sleeper coach to be taken out of service. But there's no practical way of determining whether passengers might have been carrying the virus - the assumption has to be that they might well have been, and there's not much you can do about that without halting all public transport altogether. I'm trying to understand why the CS seated coach seems to be such a special case.

 

[paul1609]

I’d be very surprised if the Aberdeen portion continued for long in its present form unless some seriously competitive fares were offered (which competed far better with airlines and day train services). The demand for it is very low all year round compared with Inverness and Fort William and it also doesn’t sit well with Serco’s marketing which makes the wealthy tourist the target market- lovely though Dundee, Aberdeen and that part of the east coast between them are, they’re not a massive tourist draw (particularly not at 7.30am on a cold, damp winter’s morning) and I can’t imagine business travel to Aberdeen being a healthy market in the short to medium term.

The problem with the Aberdeen section northbound is that it runs far too early for the majority of the markets it serves.
I used to travel fairly regularly up to Fife to join ships that were coming out of Rosyth for trials. I can assure you that you cant even get a taxi at Inverkeithing at 4.55! I only did it once!
I'd imagine its the same to everywhere up to Dundee.
If you need to get the sleeper its better to get the lowlander to Edinburgh and then a local train.
The reality of pricing is its usually better to get a flight to Edinburgh the night before, hire car and a hotel. That's even paying for the test gear to fly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2021 ==

Hope the seated coach stays, the budget alternative is an overnight coach with next to no space.

I always thought that until I discovered the overnight Megabus service to Glasgow and Stirling.
In pre-covid times it was non stop London Victoria to Glasgow Buchanan Street (except for a driver change at Lancaster Services).
I was amazed the first times that I used it that it was achieving 7 hour journey times (scheduled for 8) and that I slept better than in a sleeper berth.
Its really a bonus to me that you can get fares that are 50% cheaper than the seats with a railcard!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But this is in response to a staff member testing positive. Not passengers. Are units taken out of service as a result of passengers being thought to have been carrying the virus? Because the suggestion is that this is what would prompt the CS sleeper coach to be taken out of service. But there's no practical way of determining whether passengers might have been carrying the virus - the assumption has to be that they might well have been, and there's not much you can do about that without halting all public transport altogether. I'm trying to understand why the CS seated coach seems to be such a special case.

Which is a valid question given that GWR have not closed theirs. I'm not convinced that the different seating layout is enough

I guess it's just that if two different people do a risk assessment you'll very often get different outcomes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2021 ==

I always thought that until I discovered the overnight Megabus service to Glasgow and Stirling.
In pre-covid times it was non stop London Victoria to Glasgow Buchanan Street (except for a driver change at Lancaster Services).
I was amazed the first times that I used it that it was achieving 7 hour journey times (scheduled for 8) and that I slept better than in a sleeper berth.
Its really a bonus to me that you can get fares that are 50% cheaper than the seats with a railcard!

If you can sleep in a cramped coach seat better than a sleeper berth, lucky you I've had DVT twice now, I don't want a third.

I would actually consider it if I could guarantee a double seat, though, perhaps they should offer that even if at double fare.

 

[paul1609]

Which is a valid question given that GWR have not closed theirs. I'm not convinced that the different seating layout is enough

I guess it's just that if two different people do a risk assessment you'll very often get different outcomes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2021 ==



If you can sleep in a cramped coach seat better than a sleeper berth, lucky you I've had DVT twice now, I don't want a third.

I would actually consider it if I could guarantee a double seat, though, perhaps they should offer that even if at double fare.

I think the reason that i struggle to sleep on the CS is the air con going on and off for the neutral sections and shunting.
If your are a marine engineer at sea and the vent goes off in the middle of the night it invariably means that you are about to get up as something has gone wrong.
I dont have enough experience of the night riviera to confirm that theory but on my last journey I did sleep from Newbury to Truro!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the reason that i struggle to sleep on the CS is the air con going on and off for the neutral sections and shunting.
If your are a marine engineer at sea and the vent goes off in the middle of the night it invariably means that you are about to get up as something has gone wrong.

I'm not a marine engineer, but I do find changes like that do wake me up, yes. It's happened if I've dozed off on a 350 or Pendolino (not often, but if I'm really tired) because the aircon cuts out for neutral sections on those too. I also find that on a plane if I doze off when there's turbulence, the turbulence stopping wakes me up!

I can't get comfortable enough in a coach seat to sleep, but when I did the Megabus with beds I woke up each time they turned off to swap drivers but slept the rest of it.

 

[alistairlees]

On Caledonian Sleeper the seated coach contains the controls for the entire train. If the seated coach can’t run, the entire train can’t run.

On the night riviera it doesn’t.

If a room has an infected person in it then that room can be cleaned and locked out of use for 72 hours without affecting anything.

So it’s risk mitigation - better to have the train running than not.

 

[BRX]

On Caledonian Sleeper the seated coach contains the controls for the entire train. If the seated coach can’t run, the entire train can’t run.

This is true for any multiple unit - in other words almost every other train in the UK. That's why I asked whether other operators are sometimes withdrawing trains from service. I don't think they are, unless it's related to a crew member.

As I see it, CS are applying a much more conservative risk mitigation than any other operator.

That includes the Night Riviera - unless they are periodically removing seated coaches from their formation.

 

[MrEd]

The problem with the Aberdeen section northbound is that it runs far too early for the majority of the markets it serves.
I used to travel fairly regularly up to Fife to join ships that were coming out of Rosyth for trials. I can assure you that you cant even get a taxi at Inverkeithing at 4.55! I only did it once!
I'd imagine its the same to everywhere up to Dundee.
If you need to get the sleeper its better to get the lowlander to Edinburgh and then a local train.
The reality of pricing is its usually better to get a flight to Edinburgh the night before, hire car and a hotel. That's even paying for the test gear to fly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2021 ==


I always thought that until I discovered the overnight Megabus service to Glasgow and Stirling.
In pre-covid times it was non stop London Victoria to Glasgow Buchanan Street (except for a driver change at Lancaster Services).
I was amazed the first times that I used it that it was achieving 7 hour journey times (scheduled for 8) and that I slept better than in a sleeper berth.
Its really a bonus to me that you can get fares that are 50% cheaper than the seats with a railcard!

I agree with all this. I do think that Fife and Dundee are probably bigger markets for the Aberdeen section than Arbroath, Montrose and Stonehaven, so it’s a shame that the sleeper arrives in these places too early to be seen as a viable option. As you say, the Glasgow sleeper also suffers from low patronage due to significant competition from day services and road coaches; again, Glasgow is a great city but you can’t exactly sell the Glasgow sleeper as a tourist experience. I think that the reason that the Inverness and Fort William sections are a success is because they arrive at and depart the key destinations at sociable times which are convenient for the passengers.

 

[theironroad]

I agree with all this. I do think that Fife and Dundee are probably bigger markets for the Aberdeen section than Arbroath, Montrose and Stonehaven, so it’s a shame that the sleeper arrives in these places too early to be seen as a viable option. As you say, the Glasgow sleeper also suffers from low patronage due to significant competition from day services and road coaches; again, Glasgow is a great city but you can’t exactly sell the Glasgow sleeper as a tourist experience. I think that the reason that the Inverness and Fort William sections are a success is because they arrive at and depart the key destinations at sociable times which are convenient for the passengers.

In my experience, the lowlander timings mean that it's just a bed and time to snatch some intermittent sleep. There's really no time to use the lounge car. I think they could add a bit of time to it , either slower running which would also make it more comfortable (pathway permitting) or stopping it somewhere in a loop for a while (but needs enforcing so doesn't run early).

While the highlander is seen as a tourist thing, it's a shame that another lounge car wasn't added so that there'd be two to allow plenty of opportunities for everyone to access it and linger if they want. At times the lounge car is for first class tickets only in essence as they are given preferential access and standard class have to stay in their cabin. Cabins are ok, but a bit small to spread out to eat and drink. The view from the cabin window is limited to say the least and while great to wake to and brush your teeth , not exactly panoramic.

 

[MrEd]

In my experience, the lowlander timings mean that it's just a bed and time to snatch some intermittent sleep. There's really no time to use the lounge car. I think they could add a bit of time to it , either slower running which would also make it more comfortable (pathway permitting) or stopping it somewhere in a loop for a while (but needs enforcing so doesn't run early).

While the highlander is seen as a tourist thing, it's a shame that another lounge car wasn't added so that there'd be two to allow plenty of opportunities for everyone to access it and linger if they want. At times the lounge car is for first class tickets only in essence as they are given preferential access and standard class have to stay in their cabin. Cabins are ok, but a bit small to spread out to eat and drink. The view from the cabin window is limited to say the least and while great to wake to and brush your teeth , not exactly panoramic.

I’m not sure whether capacity or paths on the WCML would permit your suggestion with the Lowlander, but it‘s a nice idea. It’s a very congested piece of railway in the morning peak with few if any spare paths.

I do think that capacity can be a problem in the Highlander lounge, particularly northbound, but I’m not sure whether adding a second one would help. I would also take with a pinch of salt the idea that it can be restricted to first class ticket holders- that rule technically exists, but it is so rarely enforced (certainly on the Highlander) that it’s simply not worth worrying about. The only time I’ve ever seen it enforced was when one of the lounge cars in the northbound Highlander set was out of action, so Aberdeen and Fort William passengers had to use the Inverness one. The crews otherwise follow a ‘first come first served’ policy in the lounge, with no preferential treatment given to any passenger (as long as they have a berth, and are not travelling in the seated coach). For a while, they did experiment with table reservations and pre-ordered meals for first class passengers in the lounge but this ended long before the change to the Mk5s.

 

[Essexman]

I use the Glasgow sleeper for work several times a year. I do find the time in bed a bit short although it’s better since CS took over and allowed earlier boarding at Euston. Boarding at Glasgow was already 10pm or 10.30pm and I was often asleep before departure. Likewise the Night Riviera from Paddington which is fine for Cornwall but a bit early for Plymouth. I used it to go to Torquay recently – doubling back from Liskeard. I use Aberdeen for work occasionally – and for Dundee have doubled back from Aberdeen. I did the same for Perth going to Inverness and back once too. Inverness I use for both work and pleasure and find the timings about right. Fort William I only use for pleasure and enjoy the long ride – although I do tend to set my alarm in time to wake up at around Gairloch.


I’d like to see all the sleepers run more slowly, to give a longer night in bed and a smoother ride.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Riviera does run pretty slowly, and still has to sit around for a while several times en route. It's probably about the shortest even vaguely viable sleeper route.

The 92s can only do 87mph (140km/h), which is hardly quick by WCML standards!

 

[CW2]

The Riviera does run pretty slowly, and still has to sit around for a while several times en route. It's probably about the shortest even vaguely viable sleeper route.

The 92s can only do 87mph (140km/h), which is hardly quick by WCML standards!

The 92s can run at 87mph, but I believe only the Up Highlander (1M16) is scheduled to run at that speed, and only south of Crewe, so as to fit in with the morning peak expresses into Euston. Otherwise they are timed at 80mph, which fits in well with the 75mph maximum of class 4 freights which predominate overnight.

 

[InOban]

I've always felt that the Aberdeen portion should be the last section to leave Edinburgh, after the FW. Unfortunately if it leaves much later it gets mixed up with early scotrail trains and an xc which I think runs ecs from Edinburgh to Dundee and then in service to Aberdeen. Perhaps now that scotrail aren't short of capacity, and with more central control of provision, xc can be asked to reduce the number of services to Aberdeen.

 

[PG]

On Caledonian Sleeper the seated coach contains the controls for the entire train. If the seated coach can’t run, the entire train can’t run.

This is true for any multiple unit - in other words almost every other train in the UK. That's why I asked whether other operators are sometimes withdrawing trains from service. I don't think they are, unless it's related to a crew member.

As I see it, CS are applying a much more conservative risk mitigation than any other operator.

Maybe, given all the other issues they've had with CAFs (lack of) build quality, that explains why they are being so cautious?

 

[williamn]

Interesting to see discussions of price of previous page. I am starting a job soon that will entail me spending a few days in Glasgow every so often, travelling from London. A berth price of £125 or even £150 is competitive with that of day train+hotel (and I would do it over that), but much beyond that and it is hard to justify.

 

[BRX]

Maybe, given all the other issues they've had with CAFs (lack of) build quality, that explains why they are being so cautious?

I don't really see how that would be relevant.

 

[paul1609]

Interesting to see discussions of price of previous page. I am starting a job soon that will entail me spending a few days in Glasgow every so often, travelling from London. A berth price of £125 or even £150 is competitive with that of day train+hotel (and I would do it over that), but much beyond that and it is hard to justify.

As always it depends where you live and where your destination is but its very unusual for rail to be able to compete with early flight up, late flight back to be honest.