Caledonian Sleeper

[alangla]

Given the awful industrial relations, apparent problems with the stock and regular interruptions caused by infrastructure problems, plus the enormous amount of subsidy it gets, is it maybe time to stop throwing good money after bad?
Wonder if VIA Rail need any more nearly new UK gauge stock?

In all seriousness though, given the upcoming financial situation all round, “bringing this operation to its knees” could potentially be the end of it. The RMT should think carefully about their next move.

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Rail is almost unique in this weirdly antiquated view of the world and I can never fathom why in the airlines, where presumably passenger safety is equally a high priority for in-flight crew, they are universally much better at combining it with creating a great experience.

In a word: competition.

 

[Bald Rick]

In all seriousness though, given the upcoming financial situation all round, “bringing this operation to its knees” could potentially be the end of it. The RMT should think carefully about their next move.

Indeed. RMT need to pick their battles carefully. If I were Serco, I’d be (secretly) happy to give up the sleeper - it’s been nothing but trouble for them. With forthcoming squeezes on public expenditure, and some tough decisions for Governments to make in the next 12 months, this would be an opportunity for Scotland to pull the plug, blame Serco (English) and the Sassenach U.K. government, and be away with £30m a year saved to spend on electrification or dare I say more effective ways to boost the tourism economy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a word: competition.

CS of course has competition - lots of it - airlines, coaches and day trains plus hotel. The one mode that usually competes with rail but doesn't really in this case due to the long journey is car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2020 ==

Indeed. RMT need to pick their battles carefully. If I were Serco, I’d be (secretly) happy to give up the sleeper - it’s been nothing but trouble for them. With forthcoming squeezes on public expenditure, and some tough decisions for Governments to make in the next 12 months, this would be an opportunity for Scotland to pull the plug, blame Serco (English) and the Sassenach U.K. government, and be away with £30m a year saved to spend on electrification or dare I say more effective ways to boost the tourism economy.

I could see it going the way DB did - bin the actual Sleeper but pay either LNER or Avanti to run a Pendolino/80x to Edinburgh via Glasgow/Glasgow via Edinburgh overnight (so a departure around 0100 from Euston/Kings Cross). Same for the Westcountry - a 5 car would probably do for that.

 

[Bald Rick]

The one mode that usually competes with rail but doesn't really in this case due to the long journey is car.

It definitely does compete, and at present is rather attractive.

Anecdote isn’t evidence, but... Cheaper fuel, emptier roads, dirt cheap hotels - my most recent trip to Scotland was the cheapest and quickest ever by road, and definitely swung me away from the Sleeper (or plane) for next time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It definitely does compete, and at present is rather attractive.

Anecdote isn’t evidence, but... Cheaper fuel, emptier roads, dirt cheap hotels - my most recent trip to Scotland was the cheapest and quickest ever by road, and definitely swung me away from the Sleeper (or plane) for next time.

London to Edinburgh by car legally with adequate stops is well over 8 hours. Most people will not be willing to drive that far in one go, which is why car has a very low modal share for that journey.

Any further north and it gets really silly and definitely necessary to break in two with an overnight stay.

 

[InOban]

I know someone who keeps his boat in Oban and regularly drives on his own from Kent.

 

[Meerkat]

Briefly worked with a bloke who lived in Surrey and was an Inverness CT season ticket holder and drove to all home games! Ignoring the safety etc aspects that is a seriously dull way to spend large chunks of your life.....

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Briefly worked with a bloke who lived in Surrey and was an Inverness CT season ticket holder and drove to all home games! Ignoring the safety etc aspects that is a seriously dull way to spend large chunks of your life.....

Can't decide if that's a reference to driving or watching football.

 

[Bald Rick]

London to Edinburgh by car legally with adequate stops is well over 8 hours. Most people will not be willing to drive that far in one go, which is why car has a very low modal share for that journey.

Any further north and it gets really silly and definitely necessary to break in two with an overnight stay.

But a sleeper is an overnight stay, for comparison.

My example:

Finish work. Depart Hertfordshire (or indeed anywhere in northern / western Home Counties, or north or west London) 1800. No traffic. Arrive at a motorway hotel somewhere between Carlisle and Glasgow before midnight, including a stop for dinner. 6-7 hours decent sleep (much more than on a sleeper). Up, showered and on the road by 0630. You can be anywhere in the Central belt for breakfast, and almost anywhere south / east of the Great Glen by 1000. I was on top of a Munro in the eastern highlands for lunch. Cost: £40 hotel, £40 diesel.

I did it a few weeks ago. It was a pleasure. Unquestionably quicker than the sleeper in terms of arrival time where I wanted to go, cheaper, and much, much easier.

Clearly not everyone lives on the north / west side of London and Home Counties. But many do. And it is definitely an option.

 

[35B]

Funnily enough the pressure to get passengers off at Euston used to mainly come from the virgin dispatch staff!

apparently the sleeper is booked to leave about 5 mins after the advertised passenger time or was some days according to the station staff at Euston!

that being said there was a rule that once the last passenger is off of your coach you could go home or to the hotel (Again I’m talking all about Euston and to an extent Edinburgh, the other stations were alright) so definitely were tricks to get the passengers off, the classic was to turn the aircon and power off and the announcements from the station would usually be enough to wake people up. I know a few people who would turn the fire alarms on and off

I do remember being impressed (if that's the word) to see the CS crew having breakfast by 8:00 at their hotel one morning.

 

[peteb]

Maybe a cause of people sitting up half the night is the bar? In a post covid scenario with the lounge reopened making the train "dry" at a given hour, say midnight, would probably encourage those lingering in the lounge to retire to their cabins? Far better I would have thought to arrange better planned sittings for breakfast, so that those wishing a decent meal could be guaranteed to get one before they continue their journey? I imagine there would be far fewer cantankerous people at 6am than 1am! It would be interesting to compare experiences on CS with similar European operations, especially in terms of refreshment provision and on train staffing during the hours 1am to 5am say.

 

[paul1609]

London to Edinburgh by car legally with adequate stops is well over 8 hours. Most people will not be willing to drive that far in one go, which is why car has a very low modal share for that journey.

Any further north and it gets really silly and definitely necessary to break in two with an overnight stay.

Im sure we've had this discussion before but Im 60 miles Southeast of London and I'd allow 10 hours to either Glasgow or Edinburgh by car. This would generally allow 2 stops one long and one short. The journey time having done Kent to both Faslane and Rosyth dockyards many times over the last 30 years is remarkably consistent end to end it only differs in where you are held up. it sounds like car shouldn't be competitive with rail but these are real journeys not city centre to centre headline rail times. Generally I'd say that daytime rail would be between 1and 2 hours faster. you can comfortably beat most sleeper journeys by car. Air plus hire car will chop 2 to 3 hours off the rail journey to the central belt and both my destinations would be doable as a day return.
The real disadvantage of rail for me is having to hump 6 ft long toque wrenches and socket sets along Euston Rd.
Id (as would many regular long distance drivers) happily do Inverness/Fort William/Oban at about 12 1/2 hours with an extra stop in a day but that would be my limit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I don't think anyone should be driving ten hour days. The EU rules for coach drivers are the boundary of what is sensible - I'd suggest car drivers should be taking more breaks than that because they're not used to it.

By all means drive to Scotland from London if you want, but to me it is irresponsible to go much further than the Lake District without an overnight stop, unless sharing driving with another person.

That said, if people are doing it (and I'd still contend that very few people actually are), then I suppose it is still competition for CS.

 

[paul1609]

I'd suggest that rather a lot of people are doing it.
The pre covid Megabus Glasgow to London overnight bus was scheduled for 8 hours door to door pre covid with a driver change at Lancaster services.
This is with 100 km/H speed limiters.
My last two southbound journeys were within a whisker of 7 hours and that was with over 20 miles of 50 mph average speed cameras on the M6.
I'd suggest that London to Crianlarich is easily achievable within the EU coach drivers rules in a car.

 

[Bald Rick]

That said, if people are doing it (and I'd still contend that very few people actually are), then I suppose it is still competition for CS.

Very few people are using the sleeper either. I suspect a lot more are driving than using the sleeper.

In terms of time, I’ve done Hertfordshire to Dalwhinnie in a little over 8 hours including a stop. Others will have done it faster, no doubt.

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I'd suggest that London to Crianlarich is easily achievable within the EU coach drivers rules in a car.

Yep, done Herts to Crianlarich in well under 7 hours.

 

[peteb]

I drove down from Montrose dep 9am to the west midlands this summer, via Tomintoul and Aviemore, A9, M74 and M6 on return from holiday, a journey which took 14 hours including 3 hrs of stops for coffee, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner. We didnt speed and this compares pretty favourably with the comparable Scotrail and WC mainline train route. We left Aviemore at 2pm arriving West Mids 11pm. Mind you it was knackering!

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2020 ==

I drove down from Montrose dep 9am to the west midlands this summer, via Tomintoul and Aviemore, A9, M74 and M6 on return from holiday, a journey which took 14 hours including 3 hrs of stops for coffee, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner. We didnt speed and this compares pretty favourably with the comparable Scotrail and WC mainline train route. We left Aviemore at 2pm arriving West Mids 11pm. Mind you it was knackering!

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Which also compares with the sleeper, eg Aviemore 10pm, extrapolated to say Wolverhampton arr 7am. (Yes I know it only calls at Crewe)

 

[MrEd]

Maybe a cause of people sitting up half the night is the bar? In a post covid scenario with the lounge reopened making the train "dry" at a given hour, say midnight, would probably encourage those lingering in the lounge to retire to their cabins? Far better I would have thought to arrange better planned sittings for breakfast, so that those wishing a decent meal could be guaranteed to get one before they continue their journey? I imagine there would be far fewer cantankerous people at 6am than 1am! It would be interesting to compare experiences on CS with similar European operations, especially in terms of refreshment provision and on train staffing during the hours 1am to 5am say.

That is very true- particularly on Friday nights, but once on an innocuous Wednesday night going to Fort William, the lounge of the northbound Highlander became full of stag parties getting progressively more loud and touchy-feely after drinking all the beer and whisky there was going. Initially they were fun and lively but they became progressively more irksome as the evening wore on, occasionally starting pointless arguments with other travellers/staff. Often this would make other passengers (and indeed the train crew) irate and only add to the drama. The staff that I know don’t miss those nights at all- being on a train with drunk and potentially disorderly/disoriented folk is not a pleasant experience, and potentially a health and safety nightmare. That night I was on the Fort William, the Aberdeen-based team leader was almost in tears and heaved a sigh of relief when they staggered out of their own accord somewhere near Wigan. They were very hung over and subdued in the Fort William lounge the next morning.

A fixed closing time in the evening and an improved breakfast offering might be very attractive on a number of counts, I agree. To be honest, you wouldn’t expect a pub to be open past midnight (on a weekday, at any rate), so most folk wouldn’t reasonably expect a railway buffet car to serve alcohol after that time.

 

[BRX]

I'm interested to know what it is about the covid situation that makes it, apparently, not possible to provide hot drinks in the morning.

 

[paul1609]

Very few people are using the sleeper either. I suspect a lot more are driving than using the sleeper.

In terms of time, I’ve done Hertfordshire to Dalwhinnie in a little over 8 hours including a stop. Others will have done it faster, no doubt.

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Yep, done Herts to Crianlarich in well under 7 hours.

Clearly we need an open access operator to propose a non stop bothy operation between London and Crianlarich, stock could comprise ex MK 3 sleeper coaches with extra bunks installed powered by 4 ex HST power cars. Seats would be replaced by sleeping on the floor in the ex cabins or toilets. Rail Enthusiast accommodation would be provided hanging out the windows of the HST power cars. The bar open 24/7 would only be available to those in hillwalker accommodation. Rail Enthusiast catering would be provided by a tesco value meal delivered at Euston.

 

[BRX]

Clearly we need an open access operator to propose a non stop bothy operation between London and Crianlarich, stock could comprise ex MK 3 sleeper coaches with extra bunks installed powered by 4 ex HST power cars. Seats would be replaced by sleeping on the floor in the ex cabins or toilets. Rail Enthusiast accommodation would be provided hanging out the windows of the HST power cars. The bar open 24/7 would only be available to those in hillwalker accommodation. Rail Enthusiast catering would be provided by a tesco value meal delivered at Euston.

Sounds perfect - sign me up

 

[MrEd]

I'm interested to know what it is about the covid situation that makes it, apparently, not possible to provide hot drinks in the morning.

Possibly the need for physical distancing in kitchens, meaning that only one host can use the lounge car kitchen at once (I don’t believe the Mk5 pantries at the corridor ends have boilers or running water, but I may be wrong) and also because the cups must necessarily be handled by staff which creates an added risk of contamination (whereas the juice and snacks can be handed to passengers in a sealed packet). Might it also be because certain catering stores are closed as on-train catering is vastly reduced/non-existent on many TOCs at the moment? Could it perhaps also be because many trains are only running with a skeleton crew because of Covid (as many needed to shield until late July)? I’ve not been on the sleeper since Covid hit, but they might only have a bare minimum of hosts on each night. I’m absolutely sure that if CS could offer hot drinks safely and reliably in the present time, they would. I’m not the greatest fan of the current operation but I’m sure there’s a good reason for what they’re doing in the present time (and it’s not because they want to wind the passengers up, as some of their worst critics think).

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Another thing I’ve thought of- for Covid safety, CS mandate ‘non-contact’ breakfast deliveries in the current time, which means breakfast snacks are meant to be left on the floor outside doors, not handed to the passenger (the host should ideally not enter the berth or make contact with the passenger other than from a distance). The protocol is for the host to knock on the door, then step away and let the passenger collect it from the corridor themselves. Perhaps it’s deemed unsafe to leave a hot drink on the floor of a moving train, especially if the passenger does not hear the knock, forgets to collect it and it stays in the corridor? Just a thought.

 

[Sleeper69]

Perhaps it’s deemed unsafe to leave a hot drink on the floor of a moving train,

Hit the nail on the head, however hot drinks should be back in the next couple of weeks, not sure how they will be delivered. In the service points in each coach there is a water heater/boiler, our old friend health and safety will not allow for hot drinks to be taken more than that coach or the coach adjacent to the service point.

 

[Bald Rick]

Clearly we need an open access operator to propose a non stop bothy operation between London and Crianlarich, stock could comprise ex MK 3 sleeper coaches with extra bunks installed powered by 4 ex HST power cars. Seats would be replaced by sleeping on the floor in the ex cabins or toilets. Rail Enthusiast accommodation would be provided hanging out the windows of the HST power cars. The bar open 24/7 would only be available to those in hillwalker accommodation. Rail Enthusiast catering would be provided by a tesco value meal delivered at Euston.

Would you prefer a Midgeing or Non-Midgeing berth sir?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Why does cashing-up take so long? In the retail world, where profit-margins are very tight and time is money, an ALDI store manager can have the whole store cashed-up in under five minutes. Because ALDI make the process so simple, to be fast and therefore saving money. Why does it take train crews so long-most companies shut buffets very early so they can cash-up-do train companies make it that hard and complex?

 

[SlideintomyTMs]

Why does cashing-up take so long? In the retail world, where profit-margins are very tight and time is money, an ALDI store manager can have the whole store cashed-up in under five minutes. Because ALDI make the process so simple, to be fast and therefore saving money. Why does it take train crews so long-most companies shut buffets very early so they can cash-up-do train companies make it that hard and complex?

Honestly yeah they kinda do, you have to do a full stock count and count every coin you have (you need accurate numbers for amount of money £1, notes, 50p, silvers and bronzes) also need to differentiate the sales between tickets and food as there are different commission rates for both. I’m a TM for another TOC now and it still takes a hot 20/30 mins to fumble around with the Envoy and the paperwork to make sure it’s all correct and i don’t even sell food!

It has always seemed needlessly complex and old hat too me and surely can be streamlined so much better, but this is the railway

 

[RT4038]

CS of course has competition - lots of it - airlines, coaches and day trains plus hotel. The one mode that usually competes with rail but doesn't really in this case due to the long journey is car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2020 ==



I could see it going the way DB did - bin the actual Sleeper but pay either LNER or Avanti to run a Pendolino/80x to Edinburgh via Glasgow/Glasgow via Edinburgh overnight (so a departure around 0100 from Euston/Kings Cross). Same for the Westcountry - a 5 car would probably do for that.

I don't think that will happen - the behavioural problems that would occur on an overnight train are just too much. This was a reason cited for the withdrawal of ordinary seating accommodation previously, and I'm pretty sure the problem will have got worse since then.

 

[InOban]

Honestly yeah they kinda do, you have to do a full stock count and count every coin you have (you need accurate numbers for amount of money £1, notes, 50p, silvers and bronzes) also need to differentiate the sales between tickets and food as there are different commission rates for both. I’m a TM for another TOC now and it still takes a hot 20/30 mins to fumble around with the Envoy and the paperwork to make sure it’s all correct and i don’t even sell food!

It has always seemed needlessly complex and old hat too me and surely can be streamlined so much better, but this is the railway

I'm astonished that any of their guests are still using cash, or, in present circumstances, that CS are allowing it.

 

[MrEd]

I'm astonished that any of their guests are still using cash, or, in present circumstances, that CS are allowing it.

They aren’t in the present time, as there’s no lounge car for anyone to buy anything in and no catering service at all apart from a free breakfast snack pack. On the rare occasion that anyone buys a walk-up ticket (strongly discouraged in present circumstances) they only accept card.

Lots of people (myself included) always travelled on the sleeper with cash when the lounge cars were operational, even in late 2019/2020, as the card machines were not reliable and often declined perfectly valid cards (generally Visa Debit cards not authorised for offline transactions, as you’d have with a basic account). I would say around 65% of passengers paid their bill in the lounge with cash, even in January this year. It was always advisable to have cash (just as it was on a paytrain route). Whether folk will go back to cash when lounge cars reopen and the Covid restrictions end remains to be seen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hit the nail on the head, however hot drinks should be back in the next couple of weeks, not sure how they will be delivered. In the service points in each coach there is a water heater/boiler, our old friend health and safety will not allow for hot drinks to be taken more than that coach or the coach adjacent to the service point.

Not even if put in one of those paper bags which are designed for people who are not trained in carrying hot drinks on trains to carry them through about 9 coaches of Pendolino as it rattles its way through the reverse curve at Berko?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2020 ==

I don't think that will happen - the behavioural problems that would occur on an overnight train are just too much. This was a reason cited for the withdrawal of ordinary seating accommodation previously, and I'm pretty sure the problem will have got worse since then.

Are there problems in the seats now? Or on the Riviera, which does have "ordinary" Standard class seating which does not, in normal times, require a reservation? I suspect the reason was in fact an excuse.

FWIW, on the 2330 Euston-Brum almost everybody is asleep by the time it eventually bothers reaching MKC (it takes an hour due to sitting behind a stopper and being previously timed to be 57-hauled).

 

[gingerheid]

Indeed. RMT need to pick their battles carefully. If I were Serco, I’d be (secretly) happy to give up the sleeper - it’s been nothing but trouble for them. With forthcoming squeezes on public expenditure, and some tough decisions for Governments to make in the next 12 months, this would be an opportunity for Scotland to pull the plug, blame Serco (English) and the Sassenach U.K. government, and be away with £30m a year saved to spend on electrification or dare I say more effective ways to boost the tourism economy.

Quite. The sleeper might be politically popular now, but one with a damaged reputation might find it harder to be politically popular in a poorer country, especially while the the HS2 that may make the Lowlander even less viable is actually under construction. My fear is that we could lose the Lowlander as soon as the Night Riviera could use a new set of coaches; could be too good an opportunity to miss for someone that wanted to.